[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Holden1669]

Caleb - I had a question while watching your feature match yesterday. Both times you shallow graved Griselbrand you attacked with him right away and then started to draw cards in your second main phase. When I've played the deck online I tend to draw 14 (or however many I can) before the attack in case I can also attack with Emrakul and just end it on the attack step. Tendrils tends to be my backup plan, maybe because I'm lazy. But either way it seems to me that attacking first reduces the number of ways you can win this turn from 3 (Attack with Emrakul + Griselbrand, Tendrils, cast Emrakul to time walk) to 2. Do you have a reason for this line?

Thanks.

[Cacks]

@ .dk - thanks. V helpful, and much appreciated.

[phazonmutant]

Caleb - I had a question while watching your feature match yesterday. Both times you shallow graved Griselbrand you attacked with him right away and then started to draw cards in your second main phase. When I've played the deck online I tend to draw 14 (or however many I can) before the attack in case I can also attack with Emrakul and just end it on the attack step. Tendrils tends to be my backup plan, maybe because I'm lazy. But either way it seems to me that attacking first reduces the number of ways you can win this turn from 3 (Attack with Emrakul + Griselbrand, Tendrils, cast Emrakul to time walk) to 2. Do you have a reason for this line?

Thanks.

Can't answer for Caleb, but I've started to question why Tendrils is even in the deck. Your line makes sense.

Testing a 5c list with Silences and Pull from Eternity. Not impressed so far, but small sample size, etc.

[Holden1669]

Can't answer for Caleb, but I've started to question why Tendrils is even in the deck. Your line makes sense.

Testing a 5c list with Silences and Pull from Eternity. Not impressed so far, but small sample size, etc.

A couple of weeks ago I saw your deck tech and I immediately went to buy the last few cards for TinFins online. I had like 53 of the maindeck cards or something like that. I bought four Shallow Graves and three Goryo's Vengeance from a bot and started playing in Tournament Practice. I got through four matches before I realized that I had forgotten that your decklist had 61 cards and the missing card was... Tendrils! I had won all the matches.

So perhaps that is an indication that Tendrils shouldn't be in the deck but, honestly, I still like it there. I'm not sure if that's because it's fun or for some other, better, reason.

[Holden1669]

A couple of weeks ago I saw your deck tech and I immediately went to buy the last few cards for TinFins online. I had like 53 of the maindeck cards or something like that. I bought four Shallow Graves and three Goryo's Vengeance from a bot and started playing in Tournament Practice. I got through four matches before I realized that I had forgotten that your decklist had 61 cards and the missing card was... Tendrils! I had won all the matches.

So perhaps that is an indication that Tendrils shouldn't be in the deck but, honestly, I still like it there. I'm not sure if that's because it's fun or for some other, better, reason.

Though "It's fun to kill them with Emrakul in game one and Tendrils them with storm 30 game two" isn't the worst reason ever.

[Dela]

Call me crazy, but what about pull from eternity and serum powder? They make pseudo entombs 5-8 when combined with the opponents gy hate and serum powder. It keeps our starting hands REALLY explosive.

It might be worth cutting the Tendrils (as discussed) adding a chrome mox (synergy with pull from eternity) and subbing a U-Sea for a Scrubland.

Something like this:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
2 Children of Korlis
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
1 Ponder
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
4 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard:

3 Pact of Negation / Duress / Mindbreak Trap?
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Pithing Needle
4 Pull from Eternity
4 Serum Powder

[Dela]

Also, with the inclusion of Pull from Eternity, Exhume might just be better than reanimate.

[catmint]

I just read through the thread and did some goldfishing with Calebs list to get familiar with the deck.

Going off:
16% Turn 1
40% Turn 2
22% Turn 3
10% Turn 4
casting in average 0,68 Discard spells as protection before going off. I did not go all-in for speed or win% though: i.e: a couple of times casting discard first loosing a turn or also did not some keep hands with a turn 2 kill but loosing to a wasteland. It was pretty impressive i have to admit.

Biggest question I have before I start testing is: Since the life-total is such an important resource, speed probably still has a very high priority postboard. Therefore I suppose if you don't bring in show&tell (like calebs sideboard) you cannot side out any combo-pieces and only little acceleration right? For example against deathrite decks: Do you just swap some discard for needle/deathmark? Makes you more vulnerable to the other forms of disruption though. It feels lame to ask this, but some generic sideboard guides would be very helpful.

[.dk]

@koby - I think what you're saying makes sense. I haven't tested yet with 7 discard + careful study, but in that case maybe it does make more sense to run the 4th Griselbrand over Intuition. You have SO many ways to find and discard Griselbrand from your hand, maybe intuition isn't needed. And it's pretty damn slow anyway...

Also hear you on the basic Island - might want to be another USea, or as you mentioned switch to a few Gemstone Mines. That would certainly open up a lot of sideboard options.

@Dela - Serum Powder + Pull From Eternity sounds pretty hot, actually. I hadn't really thought about using Pull from Eternity like that, or along with Chrome Mox. Those are definitely good ideas that make Pull better - something to test for sure. I really like that, actually - might be one of the next non-transformational options I test.

@Holden - that's the same way I play the deck. I generally draw as much as is safe pre-combat to try to make an Emrakul too and swing for 22. That's generally my plan A - Tendrils and the other fun lines are if you don't quite get there. However, I don't think that cutting Tendrils is a good idea, personally. It opens up many lines of play and allows you to have a varied attack plan if for whatever reason you can't attack, they have karakas, their life total is above 22, etc. I suppose it might be win-more, but at minimum I think it should be in the sideboard. It's honestly just too good not to play.

@catmint - a while back I ran Silence/Chant in the sideboard and used them from time to time. However, since this deck doesn't run LED, a good counterspell suite would probably be better. Flusterstorm in particular would be my choice. Since you aren't going to dump your hand mid combo like TES would, Chant effects aren't really required pre-combo. Leyline is almost good... the problem is that you really need to board in 4 since you're never going to cast it. And in that case, what are you taking out to effectively only stop part of the hate that you care about? Abrupt Decay is good - however for most things not Chalice or Counterbalance, a Chain of Vapor will do the job just fine too. Probably depends on the meta - and again splashing green would require a large change to the manabase.

@Finn - Yep, totally remember you from GP Denver. :) I see you have Niv-Mizzet in your list - he's one of the cards we considered right after GP Atlanta. Personally, I think an Emrakul is generally superior in that slot, as he can wipe boards to deal with permanent based hate (leyline of sanctity, etc.), and his shuffle trigger is actually used to cycle your deck multiple times. But, if you're finding Niv-Mizzet to work, by all means! Also, I hardcast Griselbrand from time to time, but that's like Plan D usually, if there is just too much hate. We usually have a fairly tough time just drawing rituals and lands into 8 mana, so it can be rather difficult. For a time, we were running Cabal Ritual in the sideboard for that purpose alongside Show and Tell and Massacre Wurm to deal with Maverick's hatebears, but that isn't really much of an issue anymore.

[phazonmutant]

It feels lame to ask this, but some generic sideboard guides would be very helpful.

No, it's completely reasonable! It took a lot of playing with entirely different builds of the deck to figure out what playing with the numbers does to percentages.

I think the primer will have some of this information, but I'll go ahead and post my intuition for sideboarding. Numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.

Ok, so the cards I do not cut:
Brainstorm, Ponder (if you have it), 1-2 Cabal Therapy, 1-2 Thoughtseize, 2 Griselbrand, 1 Emrakul, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, 13 of the lands.

These cards help you find the other cards, protect them, are essential to any non-ANT transform, or are your mana cards. There is an argument for shaving a Ponder if you want to be faster, but I don't like that. I've played the deck with as few as 13 lands and it works, but will have more inconsistent openers.


Cards I prefer not to cut:
Shallow Grave, Entomb, Intuition, Children of Korlis
These are the core combo pieces and I'd think twice before cutting them. Intuition is better than it looks, multiple Children help get you out of variance.


Cards I usually shave / cut:
0-2 Goryo's Vengeance, 1-2 Reanimate, 1-2 Chrome Mox, 1-2 Griselbrand, x Careful Study (if shaving Griselbrand), Tendrils.

Cutting the worst ins and outs (Reanimates, Careful Studies, rarely Goryo's Vengeance) makes your consistency some small percentage worse (5%? 10%?) to find in the first 2 turns, but you typically expect sideboard games to be grindier because they have cards that interact with you. That gives you more time to find the pieces because they're diluting their gameplan too.
Chrome Mox is almost always miserable to draw pre-combo. I think 1 Mox is sufficient to kill the turn you make Griselbrand >75% of the time (and you can almost always do a pass-the-turn kill).
I don't think the Tendrils is actually necessary in the vast majority of the matchups after playing without it some. Be prepared for 10 minute combo turns though.

You have to think about why the above cards are in the deck in the first place. They all make the deck faster by being extra pieces of an effect other cards do better. Reanimate especially kinda sucks, but is useful as additional ways to make Children.

Multiple copies of Griselbrand are in the deck for a few reasons (in order of importance):
1) so Intuition works as a 5th Entomb,
2) in case a copy gets RFG'd,
3) so you can discard yourself / Careful Study.
If you're expecting to have to use your discard on your opponent because they have a lot of relevant cards (U control), you can shave down to 2 Griselbrands because reason 3 just isn't going to come up unless things are already going your way.


So those are the cards I look to take out. I look to bring in about 2-4 relevant cards for the matchup g2 (because you won g1, right?). So far I've been happy with some combination of Chain of Vapor, Pithing Needle, and maybe Pull from Eternity as generic answers for non-prison decks. They all answer a variety of hate, and 1 Chain of Vapor isn't a bad idea to always bring in since you'll always find it if you need to. Adjust g3 as necessary.

Sideboarding reanimator decks is difficult and feels so loose - you're just shaving numbers semi-randomly and throwing in answers to your best guess of what the opponent has. Keep track of tournament results and look at what grave hate each deck tends to have.

[Richard Cheese]

Going to try to quickly address some of the recent comment flood...I know a lot of this has already been answered but I wrote this earlier today and the site timed out and I don't want to just let it go to waste.

On City of Solitude - it's an interesting idea, but if we're going to play that slow postboard, I think we should try seriously testing Abeyance or other Chant effects first, before we move towards a rainbow-land manabase for a couple sideboard cards. Pull From Eternity is cute, but relies on your opponent exiling something first, or I guess imprinting on a Chrome Mox...seems too conditional. If I've learned one thing from Children of Korlis though, it's never to write anything off without testing it.

One thing that none of these options really deals with though that's becoming increasingly popular is Rest In Peace. Abrupt Decay is a good option, but again a fairly gross mana requirement when we're already in the color of bounce.

I think the best reactive board is going to have a combination of bounce, Pithing Needle, some kind of chant effect, Show and Tell, and possibly a couple Cabal Rituals, which get much better when you anticipate a longer game.

On drawing before/after attacks - I'm of the opinion that it's correct to draw as many as you can pre-attacks. I could be wrong on this, but I agree that leaving the hasty Emrakul win open is probably best whenever possible.

On Leyline of Sanctity - It is really good at stopping discard, but to be effective you have to board in 3-4, and pulling cards from the main is hard enough as it is. I personally don't think discard is as much of a back-breaker for us as it is for Sneak/Show, since we have so many interchangeable pieces. Again, I don't want to discourage testing any idea, but it probably just isn't worth having 3 dead draws to insulate yourself from discard.

@Finntrinsic: Niv-Mizzet is pretty funny, but I really think you want it to be Emrakul. In addition to being another win condition, he's a great emergency reset button, and probably most importantly, his shuffle effect let's you chain Children/Grizzlebees activations to make infinite storm/mana/life

[phazonmutant]

Call me crazy, but what about pull from eternity and serum powder? They make pseudo entombs 5-8 when combined with the opponents gy hate and serum powder. It keeps our starting hands REALLY explosive.

This is the most fun belcher deck ever... I'm definitely going to be working on a list and playing it Wednesday. 4 Serum Powder, 4 Pull from Eternity main, HERE WE GOOOOOO. Expect a tournament report.

[catmint]

Thanks for all the tips and comments.

Can someone maybe also comment on the Show&Tell sideboard plan. I guess you can remove some graveyard combo and keep discard. But do you want to bring show&tell in against a deathrite deck? It seems that ~4 slots anti deathrite + 3-4 slots show&tell would delute the deck so much that it looses too much of it's natural protection/enabler (discard) and speed. I would rather go for anti deathrite hate and keep enough speed to "naturally" fight deathrite rather than show&tell. How Against UW variants which don't kill that fast I guess some speed can be sacrificed (i.e: -2 chrome mox & -2 engance, -1 cabal +3 show&tell & 2 chain of vapor (RIP).

My questions to the people thinking Serum Powder and Pull from eternety is a good SB plan. If this really works shouldn't it be maindeck? What is the advantage of bringing this in over anti-hate or show&tell.

[ZimAshe]

this may be a dumb question and also may have been addressed already but has anyone thought of Mox Diamond over Chrome Mox?
In goldfishing the deck I've noticed that sometimes there is an excess of land in the cards that you draw off Griselbrand. Diamond could also help with the need for white mana in the deck and not having to rely solely on petals. just a thought. I am looking forward to running this deck on sunday at our Legacy event!

@Phazomuant: looking forward to your report

[Darkenslight]

To potentially answer DRS, how about Permafrost Trap? The only other 'relevant' card is Dream Tides, which is far too expensive, in my opinion. Permafrost comes down potentially on Turn 1 (but it's far more relevant on the play, and is very meta-dependent.)

[catmint]

If we already run Pithing Needle and Deathmark as answers which are not maxed out in possible numbers - why run the trap over these options? both cards deal with a bunch of other stuff as well (crypt, relic, belcher, sneak attack - Thalia, Canonist, Meddling Mage). Trap is more conditional, less effective and not versatile at all. Beeing strictly worse is term that you can not use often but here it might apply. :)

[Finntrinsic]

@Finntrinsic: Niv-Mizzet is pretty funny, but I really think you want it to be Emrakul. In addition to being another win condition, he's a great emergency reset button, and probably most importantly, his shuffle effect let's you chain Children/Grizzlebees activations to make infinite storm/mana/life

Mr. Firemind is usually only around for game1. I have an Emrakul in my board. My thinking was this:

Assume you make your combo and have a Hasty Grizzle with enough life to draw 14 before combat.

Scenario A: In that 14 you hit the mana and spells to bin/reanimate another creature. If its Emrakul you swing for 22 gg. If its Niv you swing for 11 Draw 7 and (assuming 18 isn't enough to kill them) they're dead to a brainstorm.

Scenario B: In that 14 you "Whiff" on another bin/reanimate. You swing for 7. You draw another 7. Hopefully in that 21 you have now hit mana+Children to reset and draw. Or mana + tendrils to finish. If its tendrils great GG. If it children now you reset draw 7, etc etc.

In Scenario B, without Niv-Mizzet all a post combat bin/reanimate gets you is a GY reset or more card draw. With Niv-Mizzet in the deck any time you get a second bin/reanimate you have the potential to threaten lethal damage.

For game 1 it seems just a touch more consistent (to me anyway).

-Finn

[Richard Cheese]

@Finntrinsic: Niv-Mizzet is pretty funny, but I really think you want it to be Emrakul. In addition to being another win condition, he's a great emergency reset button, and probably most importantly, his shuffle effect let's you chain Children/Grizzlebees activations to make infinite storm/mana/life

Mr. Firemind is usually only around for game1. I have an Emrakul in my board. My thinking was this:

Assume you make your combo and have a Hasty Grizzle with enough life to draw 14 before combat.

Scenario A: In that 14 you hit the mana and spells to bin/reanimate another creature. If its Emrakul you swing for 22 gg. If its Niv you swing for 11 Draw 7 and (assuming 18 isn't enough to kill them) they're dead to a brainstorm.

Scenario B: In that 14 you "Whiff" on another bin/reanimate. You swing for 7. You draw another 7. Hopefully in that 21 you have now hit mana+Children to reset and draw. Or mana + tendrils to finish. If its tendrils great GG. If it children now you reset draw 7, etc etc.

In Scenario B, without Niv-Mizzet all a post combat bin/reanimate gets you is a GY reset or more card draw. With Niv-Mizzet in the deck any time you get a second bin/reanimate you have the potential to threaten lethal damage.

For game 1 it seems just a touch more consistent (to me anyway).

-Finn

That's really the argument for having Tendrils main. You are pretty much guaranteed 7 more cards post-combat, which can often be the difference between passing the turn and winning.

@Darkenslight - Why run something conditional like permafrost when you could just run bounce for the same cost, or Deathmark, which is potentially better given the fact that we generally have more black mana than anything?

[Koby]

Submerge over Deathmark over Trap cards IMO, unless you're fighting vs Teeg. This deck doesnt care about Teeg unless youre winning with Tendrils anyway.

[.dk]

Submerge over Deathmark over Trap cards IMO, unless you're fighting vs Teeg. This deck doesnt care about Teeg unless youre winning with Tendrils anyway.

Submerge is a good idea - nice. We don't care about Teeg or Leyline of Sanctity at all - just use Emrakul and Griselbrand beats to win instead. That's exactly why we have 2 very different win cons to be able to get around random things like that.

/edit

@ZimAshe

I ran a singleton Mox Diamond at GP Denver for that reason. It was fine - great in some circumstances and terrible in others. One thing to keep in mind is that post drawing with Griselbrand, not only do you have a bunch of extra lands, you have a bunch of extra cards in general to imprint on Chrome Mox. Diamond looks somewhat attractive in a 5c build though - maybe a 1/1 split of Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond.