[Deck] The Rock

[Barbed Blightning]

IoK hits a ton of burn's spells, and Duress hit almost 100% of Burn's spells. Thoughtseize is still a free Shock to them. Goblin Guide can be killed with Decay/Swords/superior blockers.

From damionblackgear:

This is the biggest reason for playing Duress alongside Thoughtseize, it trades with a TON of threatening cards. The only reason I used IoK in my last local tournament was because the only real combo deck was Show and Tell...and IoK deals with aggro decks nicely while still hitting S&T.

Lastly, I'd play 4x Thoughtseize, but I only have 3. Biggest reason right there, but I still want 6 turn 1 discards that target. That's just how I roll. In all seriousness, I actually sideboard out TS for Hymn in the sideboard against burn.

The fact remains that thoughtseize still is more powerful and more flexible than either duress or iok. I will never run fewer than 4.

Iok and duress matter for your meta, I suppose. As you said duress for spells, iok for creatures. 6 discard main is correct regardless.

[Petree]

IMO, 4 thoughtsiezes is what i'm running, I just like the options it gives me but thats also because I run 8 discard spells.

Still IMO, I believe if you are running a 3/3 split, then it should be 3 thoughtseize/ 3 duresses.... unless you want 4 thought seize/ 2 duress... With the way the meta is shifting right now (more combo and control making its way back) I like having the power of duress over IOK at the moment... It almost seems like esper will be a popular deck again, and duress just gets all counter spells and jace. Unless we see an emergence of RUG again or even American Delver, IOK is much better. But you know how it is for me, its all based on what you like....

[Mr. Safety]

Still IMO, I believe if you are running a 3/3 split, then it should be 3 thoughtseize/ 3 duresses.... unless you want 4 thought seize/ 2 duress... With the way the meta is shifting right now (more combo and control making its way back) I like having the power of duress over IOK at the moment... It almost seems like esper will be a popular deck again, and duress just gets all counter spells and jace. Unless we see an emergence of RUG again or even American Delver, IOK is much better. But you know how it is for me, its all based on what you like....

Bingo...I expect combo in droves, probably more than normal because of the Jund/mid-range uprising.

[Barbed Blightning]

I was leaving that one out of it for a reason. It's a common misconception but, you're not saving yourself anywhere near the amount of damage this is played to. Example, Lightning Bolt is 3 damage. If you take it with Thoughtseize, you've saved 1 damage. Fireblast is 2 damage. Your best hope is to take Price when you've been unable to play basics.

Even if you're taking something that does more that the Thoughtseize. there's no guaranteeing that they would've needed that card or that the 1-2 life you're saving is relevant. You also gave them 2 damage free of charge. If there's one thing that everyone's love of Force of will should have taught you in this matter, "Free is worth an extra card."

Thoughtseizing a burn deck (or deck with reach) is giving them an extra tool to win, You. Against those decks, both Duress and IoK are superior to Thoughtseize. Also, depending on the meta, that's also the reason to run a 3/3 split.

When Burn was doing well from all the new players at SCG, I ran IoK over Thoguhtseize (4/0). My sideboard card at the time was Duress. I played it that way because, at that time, there weren't all the different threats above 3. IoK dealt with all but about 4 cards in the format which were all part of already bad match-ups. In today's meta, there are decks designed to be able to last and use cards that cost 4+ to win the game. IoK is no longer able to get as much value as it previously did. Duress is more capable as an assist to the discard package.

-Edit- Did I ever mention how much I hate being the opening post of a page?

Burn is just one matchup, and I will gladly take two to prevent the 2-8 damage of a price. As you said, cmc 4+ is gaining popularity, so I would rather hurt my burn matchup slightly to keep the big matchups good

An open is also the last place I would get rid of thoughtseize. You need the versatility of that card for the sheer randomness of what you will play. Sure, burn could be popular... and you'll play combo for six rounds and midrange for three.

[KobeBryan]

So the ONLY reason you don't want ot play thoughtseize is because of burn decks.

For that reason, I would consider it negligible, as i don't even consider burn a deck.

[Petree]

Agreed. Burn is a deck but not real enough for me even though it is a very bad match up for rock. If your running deathrite shamen you shouldn't even have to worry about burn lol they either have to waste a spell on him or you. For me though, I don't even run deathrite shamen anymore i'm back to the mox diamonds but I still leave in my thoughtseizes. shit... I rather take two than take four from fireblast or price.

[sdematt]

You can't count on DRS being the key to winning against Burn. You basically have to play tight, and go balls to the wall with Tarmogoyf and fetch basics. Swords your own guys if you have to (and you should). If they're smart, they'll ignore all your creatures and go for 21 to the dome. If you have Jitte, that ends the game (or Timely or something). If not, don't worry about that matchup. If you have marginal hate that helps, great, if not, you're running the wrong deck to beat burn (instead, try RIP combo).

Nourish is also a thing, or Hero's Reunion, etc.


-Matt

[damionblackgear]

We all know that the Burn match is bad. We've all unsuccessfully tried many things to fix that. Luckily for us it's receded in popularity. It's a shunned deck, but it is a deck. May I remind you all, Burn is the deck your meta will give to newer players to get into legacy so they can have time to watch other games and get a feel for the format, decks, and interactions. In that sense, it is the alternative to Belcher. It's also the deck that some people just prefer because nothing is really good vs it (because none of the community respects it). So, you will see it. You will die to it. You will be bothered by it.

All that being said, you don't have to plan to play against it unless you're playing online. That meta is filled with burn and you should adjust according to their meta.

Now that I'm done with that, has anyone done anything new in testing? How're the current testings going?

Sidenote - My time with 0 Thoughtseize was during a period where burn was about 25% of the field and there were maybe 4 cards played that had a 4+cc. At that time, it was a virtually complete replacement with almost 0 downside.

[damionblackgear]

I'm posting again since someone might respond as it takes me about an hour to complete a post... don't ask.

I had been testing no Mox/SFM with 3x DRS. I didn't like that build and switched back to the Mox + SFM. I'm going to give 3 DRS a try alongside the Mystic and see how that goes.

On Strangleroot Geist. It's been doing better than the Ooze did but not better than a Goyf. I'm going to go to a 1/1 split between them as I still want diversity between my Zenith Targets. Additionally, the forced GG mana cost was causing issues as I was having to pay attention to too many things and I haven't had to do that to that extent for a long time.

I've cut the Stronghold again, but that may be a mistake. I haven't really had to many instances where it's been good to me though. I've still got the Maze and haven't tried that out as the stronghold. I may just be worried about fliers w/equipment.

I cut down to 1 Decay and wanted to get some testing in with the additional 2 in the board over the Needles but I didn't get a chance to make the switch before I started my last testing session (daily).

I'm also thinking about cutting down to 2 knights and adding a Finks as my additional Liliana answer (only 1 geist, remember). It still is able to deal with most of their deck and gives me two life. Perhaps Witness would be a better call but I'm not sure yet. I'm gonna give a couple of things some chances and see how they go.

[sdematt]

I haven't done enough gauntlet testing to get a real feel for any new cards I want to try yet (yes I've played in tournaments and won, but that's not gauntlet testing, that's possibly wins due to variance).

Seems like the meta is pretty stable at the moment. I think I'm going to bring this deck to SCG Seattle and maybe try to reclaim some glory. If not I won't be too butthurt.

-Matt

[Koplinchen]

I don't really understand what some of you guys are talking about. I can understand that you dont have Thoughtseize, but that doesent make it bad. It doesnt even make Duress good.

Thoughtseize is obviously the best discard spell. If you run certain version you will add 3-4 Cabal Therapies and that's it. If you run KotR then you go for Inquisition of Kozilek. Duress is the last choice - 1-2 in sideboard, but It's not very good.

Let's not talk about burn matchup and Thoughtseize anymore. Matt has it right - fetch basics, play shaman, goyf(s), keep W ready, jitte is gg - not necessary - and kill him! This should be enough. Burn players are usually quite bad.

[Claymore]

Played in some Legacy side events at GP Charlotte. Got embarrassed by a T0 Leyline of Sanctity against RIP Miracles when I kept a 1 lander with Thoughtseize, Hymn, Pithing Needle (on Top), Confidant, Goyf, GSZ (no arbor), and proceeded to draw 0 lands and got killed by Jace. Went 2-1-1 in that event, beating RUG Delver and BUG Delver - STP on Tombstalker ftw.

Similarly got embarrassed when I put my brand new Pithing Needles into my tutor board, then brought it in against Ad Nauseum for LED...yeah, that doesn't work.

[damionblackgear]

I don't really understand what some of you guys are talking about. I can understand that you dont have Thoughtseize, but that doesent make it bad. It doesnt even make Duress good.

I'll take blame for it going off topic. I wrote that there was a time when IoK was better than Thoughtseize (burn infested meta) and some people took that to be the bases for now. That was supposed to be a comment for another specific comment but I need to be more clear. The actual conversation was supposed to be about supplemental discard (in addition to Thoughtseize) and not replacement discard. Burn was the example that was used, which I ran with after avoiding figuring that people would run with whatever mention of burn, as an example, there was. That should clear up the random spurt of posts.

[sdematt]

And the train is now back on the tracks, folks.

I'm going to try some new tech I found, but I don't think it's anything special.

My list I used the other night was:

3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

3 Bitterblossom
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

22 Land (which seemed light, I'd definitely want 23 in this deck, so many 3 drops).


Vampire Hexmage was actually something. 2/1 First Strike is a big deal (this slot was Thalia until I realized Thalia is good AGAINST me) in creature combat, and a 3/1 after Sorin is even better. It also gets to muck Jace out of nowhere, make a Scavenging Ooze a 2/2 randomly, muck a Gemstone mine, etc. It's pretty decent just as utility and not even for Marit Lage. It also has the nice ability that people assume Marit Lage and gun for it.

The list is super fun, but definitely need some tweaking.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I had a similar creature base for my BW brew, but had 2-3 Mirran Crusader in the slot you played Hexmages. Being able to be pro-BG is nice in a meta full of BGx decks. He double strikes, which just gets dumb with equipment, and even without equipment, he's your heaviest hitter.

[Sughayyer]

I asked for the list because before I had that break on magic I ran a bw tokens list as well. It was similar to yours, and now I wonder - some of thesse cards would really be nuts in the rock.
I'll post the list I used, and we all could discut possibilities, what you all say?
Well, the list:

3 cabal therapy
3 inquisition of kozilek
1 thoughtseize

4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate (became o-ring when snt went rampant)

2 sensei's divining top
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull (only used it against merfolks and goblins)

3 zealous persecution

2 liliana otv
1 ajani goldmane (yeah)

3 dark confidant
3 stoneforge mystic
3 blossom
4 lingering souls

it was great against most decks of that meta (maverivk, esper, burn, ant, snt).

I realized that there's too much card advantage being generated, but I missed goyf in some matches (merfolk, combo, burn).

We could fit in goyf and shaman (as well as decay and other things).

[Kpicco]

Wouldn't the B/W Decks be better suited in the Deadguy Ale's forum? Considering they're pretty much the same lists I was running as Deadguy Ale before switching to Junk.

[Petree]

whats are you guys doing for the show n tell matchup? Yes hand disruption but with show n tell decks or omniscience or dream halls version or enter the infinite versions running around... what are your side or main board techs? I just feel like since they are boarding in leyline of sanctity now, hand disruption alonw wont do the work. I'm thinking angel of despairs or oblivion rings, if not ethersworn or tidehollow sculler. Just seems like such a hard deck for us to beat at the moment.

[jin]

whats are you guys doing for the show n tell matchup? Yes hand disruption but with show n tell decks or omniscience or dream halls version or enter the infinite versions running around... what are your side or main board techs? I just feel like since they are boarding in leyline of sanctity now, hand disruption alonw wont do the work. I'm thinking angel of despairs or oblivion rings, if not ethersworn or tidehollow sculler. Just seems like such a hard deck for us to beat at the moment.

Liliana of the Veil?

[Chatto]

Greetings to you all,

This is my first post in this topic. I would like some advise regarding the list I am planning to take to a tournament this week. First of all, due to budgetreasons I do not own any Thoughtseize's. I am planning to purchage them als soon as I am able. Second, I only have two Libraries atm, and have liked it so far.

I've always played with Pulse, but recently decided to change to Vindicate. I'm overall not so sure, apart from the landdestruction ability, which one I like best. What do you guys recon/ advice?

Now for my list:

Creatures (12)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (26)

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vindicate
2 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Land (22)

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Marsh Flat
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heat
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Engineered Plague
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
3 Mindbreak Trap

Thank you for your time in advance :)

Chatto