Big mulatto/black guy? That would have been my friend Kyle =)Originally Posted by Claymore
Yeah, that's it. I was pretty stoked to see a Fit running around but didn't get to see how he did. Any idea?
He went X-1 in the challenge. He did a few win-a-boxes on Sunday I know, but I don't think he won any of them. Might have split one. I know he got paired up against my 12post deck in round 1 of one of the win-a-boxes and my friend who was borrowing it bent him over with it....which I actually kind of think that was just bad luck on Kyle's part, because this list is designed to be resilient to 12-post. Don't really know specifics though....Kyle isn't exactly great at relating details of games and like what worked and what didn't and such.
Hi Guys,
I am preparing for the next Legacy GP in Europe, and I have a quick Sideboard question. Let's assume I play a GBw Rector version of Nic Fit. What would you better sideboard against Jund ?
I've been in a local tournament last week end, and played 2 Junds. At that time I only had a 4th Decay and a Sigarda to board in (already 3 Deed maindeck, and Deed is not so so cool as you have to play it "active" because of adverse Decays)
Sigarda is an insta-win, and actually made me win the 1st Jund in rounds.
And I lose to the 2nd Jund in Top4, because of heavy discard. (and my opponent had quite the regular start Thoughtseize into Bob into Lili into BBE into stuffs 2 times, which does not help a lot)
So I have been thinking, should I SB Leyline of Sanctity against Jund ?
I could also board Infest instead of Deed to wipe his creatures away (as Deed is not as good as usual), but the holding the aggressivity is not so much my concern. (I mean Explorer and Rector are good "not quite Moat" enough to stall the game)
What are your experiences against Jund ?
Thx for the feedback.
Sigarda isn't in your maindeck? o_O
Jund is REALLY easy if they don't hit Liliana of the Veil in the first three turns, and REALLY hard if they do. Leyline of Sanctity helps a ton -- considering that you're in Europe and thus have a higher combo meta, I would probably recommend 3 copies.
Deed is still fine against Jund. Goyf and Bob are their big cards, and sweeping all that crap away is good. Basically, the game against Jund goes as such: hope that they don't hit Liliana (Therapy this if you can), sweep away their goyfs/bobs/deathrites, then Sigarda FTW. Sun Titan is also ****ing ENORMOUS, and they can't stop him from bringing back Deed, as Deathrite doesn't exile enchantments. Rector can be big game if your opponent doesn't realize that Deathrite stops her, or if you sweep away Deathrite beforehand. Jund is almost entirely kold to Moat. They have Liliana ults and PFire (both of which are turned off by Leyline of Sanctity), and Deathrite Shaman as outs to Moat. That's it. Some lists run like a 1-of Pulse, but by and large, Moat will buy you a ton of time if not win you the game on the spot. If you're on the Moat plan, I'd recommend boarding in Leyline of the Void, as well -- that removes 80% of the Deathrite fodder that actually hurts you, while buying you time by keeping Goyf small and PFire offline.
But yeah. tl;dr: Sigarda. She's strictly better than their deck.
---------------------------------
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Fierce Empath
2 Eternal Witness
1 Mystic Snake
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Frost Titan
1 Palinchron
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: Deadeye Navigator (//engine)
SB: Vampire Hexmage (//planeswalker hate)
SB: Bojuka Bog (//graveyard hate)
SB: Karakas (//forms a lock with Venser)
SB: Volrath's Stronghold (//recursion engine)
SB: Acidic Slime (//land/enchant/artifact hate)
SB: Faceless Butcher (//targeted kill)
SB: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (//Empty the Warrens sweep / aggro pressure)
SB: Maga, Traitor to Mortals (//infinite kill)
SB: Phyrexian Revoker (//name a problem)
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
This is the updated list, as I would consider playing. Kyle's original list had a slightly different maindeck and sideboard, but we discussed a few changes after the event (such as cutting the 2 maindeck Abrupt Decays that it was running).
His list wasn't originally running Palinchron, but as I sat here rebuilding it, I was thinking to myself....that's like the easiest way to make infinite mana ever....-and- there's a ton of things to do with infinite mana once you have it. Wish->Maga just straight up kills, as does the Stroke and Blue Sun which are just hanging out for value otherwise. Infinite blink lets you draw your deck with EWit and a Brainstorm, or "just" Venser all of their permanents back to their hand.
I don't know if the Palinchron engine is actually good enough, but it seems like it's worth testing. The list overall is very untuned, but I honestly like where it's going better than I do the Future Sight or Panoptic Mirror lists, for one very simple reason: its "combo element" if you will is in its creatures. It still gets to run dudes, and Nic Fit likes to run dudes. It likes to gunk up the board with value chumpers that it can bring back later for even more value. Wish gives you a backup Deadeye in case your first one gets dealt with, while also providing you with a lot of flexible bullets for various problems and board states. It also gives you easy access to Volrath's Stronghold -- one of the few times you'll see me recommend the card. I built the wishboard to have a Scapewish-esque mentality for now -- it has a 5-card board with 10 bullets, which is the same as Scapewish. Eventually, however, I expect that one or two bullets will be dropped for additional sideboard space. I'll say again that this thing is very rough (it was just birthed on the 10-hour ride down to Charlotte), but I think that it has more promise than Future Sight and Panoptic Mirror combined.
BUG - Check
Nic Fit - Check
Infinite Combo - Check
I'm in. :D
I'll go ahead and change up the lands as usual tho, as i prefer running 8 fetched and 5 duals rather then 6 fetch 7 duals ;)
Is the Frost Titan really necessary? Yes you get to tap down their field, however with anything else you will get the easy win aswell, and i don't think Frost Titan is the bomb the deck wants, how ever good it may be.
Also I'm not sure if you want to be running the Blue Sun's Zenith/Stroke of Genius, if you make infinite mana it's obviously auto-win, but i'm not sure if it's good enought for "just value", as it only really becomes good at X>3.
No more comments from me for now, i'll see if i can get the missing cards and get testing! :D
I like the Deadeye Idea. Ive been wanting to get into a combo oriented BUG nic fit list lately, and this might be my ticket.
Things Id definitely change would be the fetches and the X draw spells. If you have infinite mana you can just bounce your ewits or empaths till you get frost titan (or draw your whole deck with ewit) and then just tap/bounce all your opponents permanents for the rest of the game. Even if they somehow kill your ewit and empath, if you have the navigator and palinchron you have 2 massive bodies that are essentially hexproof, vigilance and cant die from combat damage. Turning just those 2 sideways should win you most games.
I see why frosty is there, empath>deadeye, untap, deadeye empath for infinite mana and then get frosty and tap down everything forever. But I wonder if there might be another card for 6+ mana that would be more useful if we drew it naturally. Ill look into it later, maybe nothing better exists.
I dont know about the living wishes. I obviously havent tested it yet, but are they really needed? My initial thoughts were that Id rather have more removal and ways to protect the deadeye combo, in the form of discard or counters.
The main reason I have 6+7 in this deck as opposed to 8+5 is because I want the additional mana sources. I'm not saying that's correct, necessarily, but that was the thought process.
Frost Titan does two very nice things for you. He serves as a massive bomb, obviously, and plays nicely with infinite mana -- but the other thing he does, is be a complete and utter dickbag to Show and Tell. Between the Vensers and the Frosty, in addition to Wish->Karakas, this version should be better equipped to fight the Show and Tell menace in ways that do not involve dying to Leyline of Sanctity. It's possible that there's something better, but I'm not sure of what it is. For what little it matters due to his size, his shield does render him immune to Punishing Fire, which is a corner case, but a nice one.
The X draw spells are probably unnecessary. I wanted a way to draw a bunch of cards that plays nicely with infinite mana, so I threw them in when I added Palinchron. It might be better for them to be a 4th Brainstorm and a 3rd Top, but I dunno. I don't think that Jace is a good idea, since we can't do what vintage does (Tidespout Tyrant) to bounce/replay/re-Brainstorm to draw our deck. I've considered Baleful Strix just as additional stall / card draw via Deadeye, but I don't like the idea of running a pair of Strix -- that guy's way too good to be just a non-tutorable 2-of. I guess we could drop the Oracles and go to 4 Strix, but I feel there should be at least 1 Oracle because that's one of the best flicker targets -- you can draw a ton of cards with that engine, since the Oracle dumps any lands you hit into play to keep flickering more with.
I'd definitely consider those slots as being "open," though.
As for Living Wish, I actually think that Living Wish is really important. It has a very Scapewish-esque feel where Wish can just win you the game (Maga). Then you have some various answers to various problems, and then you have a 2nd Deadguy, in case the first one gets dealt with. Being able to wish for a 2nd copy of Deadeye seems critical to me, since sometimes the first one does die -- or, worse, gets exiled. But, at the same time, you don't really want to go deep and put like 3 copies of him maindeck, because you'll clog. The Wishes are actually a pretty elegant solution, I think.
Very solid points there Kevin.
I also believe the deck really wants the Wishes, considerimg that you don't want to ever run into double Navigator, but still want acces to more in case of removal.
I'd change the wishboard around a little bit, but that's just tweaking.
I'm not sure if you need the Titan vs S&S, you allready have the 2 Vensers aswel as Wish into Karakas/Fleshbag/Faceless + sideboard discard/counters to battle them.
I believe any 5+ toughness creature is near enough immune to Punishing Fire, considering that is costs atleast 7-8 mana to get 6 damage in anyway ;)
I think i'll be playing around with 3 Baleful Strix + 1 Coiling Oracle (for Zenithing) because, tbh, Strix is amazing in doing what it does best :P
I'd go up to 4 Brainstorm, 3 Top probably, as that makes it so much easier to get all pieces together, rather then being stuck with a spell that costs 6+ mana to be effective.
Hello hello,
glad to see we' re here to talk about BUG Nic Fit once again.
I am gonna post my old BUG (stem from the previous panoptic-vision list: it turned out that panoptic its super cool, but not that great sometimes).
People who are curious can take a look at it: it's solid, it's not that original though.. Slowly it got closer to any common BUG control deck. Anyway:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Ponder
2 Cryptic Command
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Consecrated Sphinx
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 Bribery
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Obstinate Baloth
Now! The Deadeye list, which i fell in love for.
1) The Palinchron stuff is good, it looks good, it feels good, but it doesnt work that good. I replaced it.
2) Same for Titan: i like that blue frozen Viking, but its not optimal.
3) Guys, again I have something precious for you: Prime Speaker Zegana + Deadeye Navigator = BANG! BANG! BOOOM!
4) What dou you think about Cloudthresher ? To me he looks awesome, especially with Deadeye. Another option is Massacre Wurm. They would take the slot of Palinchron/Titan. I probably prefer Cloudthresher because he can be played during opponents turn and doesnt gift a free Time walk (due to the massive mana needed for Wurm), he can be a finisher if you have more life and deadeye on the field, and he can be played for its evoke cost and responded with deadeye's ability (while you still can get him with both GSZ and Fierce Empath). Massacre Wurm could be a sexy sb option.
5) I made some changes to sb too as long as I am not really sold on the infinite mana plan (I playtested it a little bit, and felt clunky).
So here's the list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deadeye Navigator
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Mystic Snake
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Cloudthresher or Massacre Wurm
SB: 1 Deadeye Navigator
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Acidic Slime
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Faceless Butcher
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Eternal Witness (I wanted more for grindy matchups)
SB: 1 Thragtusk
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit (Planeswalkers uncounterable solution)
Cheers!
This seems... kinda awesome! It's one of the few cards from Gatecrash that was of much interest to me. It's green sunnable and if they don't kill your Navigator in response to the GSZ then that's a whole ton of cards in hand. I mean really, if you can't win with 6 more cards, a 5/5 and a 6/6, you aren't trying hard enough :)
<3 Deadeye. Imma call him Ahab, since he also works well with Great Whale.
I do not think Deadeye Navigator is good enough. Consecrated Sphinx also wins the game if you untap with it. It is better against Sorcery Speed Removal (Jace, Liliana, Pulse) and has better fighting stats (blocks Delver, Tombstalker).
But most importantly you play a ton of inferior cards (Venser and Mystic Snake over Jace TMS) just to make a 6-drop better. That seems way too gimmicky.
Why all those cute techs? IF you want carddraw and splash blue, why not run Damia, Sage of Stone? Still think Blue is not required. I rather run Armada Wurm for the lulz
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@Arianrhod: Thx for advices
Indeed the Jund MU is kinda driven by their Lili, but also on the fact that our Explorers die. I think that more than Lili, it is the fact that I could not get them dead when I lost to Jund.
Thoughtseize T1 on Explorer or GSZ is also kinda deadly.
So I guess I'll go for Leylines.
And yes, I don't play Sigarda MD, i am the one that plays the weird Omniscience, so I don't have big guys in my stack. But would I play a "normal" version, I would certainly play Sigarda MD with so many Junds around.
About the late BUG list: The Dead-Eye thing is really cute, but I agree better with Tao. Consecrated Sphinx sounds better to me. I also wonder lately about playing Harmonize, and I think it would fit good in BUG. At least I would see it in place of Stroke of Genius.
A while before the Nic Fit thread on The Source even existed and when my friends all laughed at me for testing out Veteran Explorer, I had a build similar to yours. Deadeye Navigator was not printed yet and I used Recurring Nightmare in combination with Palinchron. To set up the combo, I used Intuition + Eternal Witness or GZS (or Palinchron or Rec Nightmare in hand works too) in combination with 7 lands. So basically it was; Deed the board once then Intuition EOT for Palinchron, Recurring Nightmare and Cabal Therapy. If they give you Palinchron, play it then play Witness or GZS to get back Rec Nightmare and play it. Sac the Palinchron to Therapy and use Rec Nightmare to get Witness. Rinse, repeat, each loop costs 6 mana (play Rec Nightmare twice) and gains 7, netting 1 mana. Use Witness to bring Intuition and it's impossible to lose with infi mana and infi cards thanks to Intuition finding anything you might need (Deed wipes their board infi times, Thragtusk, which wasn't printed when I used this deck gives infi life and infi tokens, discard their hand with Therapy thus no need for additional win conditions). If they give you Rec Nightmare or Therapy instead of Palinchron, the combo still works. It even works with 6 lands with a creature in play: Witness for Rec Nightmare, Therapy targeting yourself to discard Palinchron and Rec Nightmare over and over again netting you a card every cycle and ending the combo with 6 lands untapped, a Palinchron in play, Recurring Nightmare in hand and whatever else you had in the yard thanks to Witness.
Graveyard hate seems like a glaring weakness, but that isn't true. Usually you have to Deed before being able to win, conviently clearing up any RiP, Relic, Tormod's Crypt and Scavenging Ooze that might stand in the way. Then you pack Therapy and perhaps Gitaxian Probe to check if the coast is clear for Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre. Although I haven't tested the deck in the Deathrite era, but I suppose the former still applies.
Ultimately, while the deck was pretty solid it had a very rough time against Jace TMS, combo decks and even with Top and Brainstorm in the deck I did get hurt by variance a little bit too much for my liking so I moved on to other decks. I do suppose the aforementioned issues are what Nic Fit struggles against in general and if you find a way to shore those issues up the format is broken. If anyone is interested in my list, which probably doesn't apply to todays metagame, let me know and I will post it.
Team R&D
While Jace is pretty amazing, Venser is the stone cold nuts in a lot of matchups that Nic Fit has issues with. Namely, combo matchups. There are so many small techy little things that can swing games where he comes around, Mystic Snake--sure, it's a singleton, it's probably only going to be useful with Deadeye Navigator, but Venser? Venser is a total monster.
Him and Deadeye also have a pretty unique relationship, better than mystic snake's, in that he's basically a walking Astral Slide But Better And He's Mother Fucking Venser (ASBBAHMFV).
This may be the coolest deck I've ever heard of...ever. Now I want (read: need) trops. Fuck.
I think the palinchron thing is stepping into being in danger of cool things, but Deadeye and the tricks actually seem to be able to stand on their own, at the very least Deadeye + Prime Speaker or whatever, probably drawing 6 cards for 2 mana repeatedly.
Ohhhh. I didn't realize that you were on Omni. I remember now. You had the Scroll Rack tech that I thought was sweet.
Are you running the Rusalka? If you're having trouble with Jund because you can't get through their tempo, 4 Green Suns and a Rusalka will do wonders for you. If memory serves you're running 2 or 3 Rectors, as well, so Rusalka would be good for that too.
Blue isn't required. It's optional, like every other version of Nic Fit that's in this thread. I'm a brewer at heart, and even if Rector and Scapewish are both highly competitive and nearly perfected, I'm always going to keep brewing new versions, because in doing so, I might find new technology for one of the pre-existing lists, or I might find something that's an even better way to attack a specific metagame. So yeah. Blue isn't required at all -- but it's something that some people prefer.
As for Damia, I've considered her several times, and I think that she's just worse than Con Sphinx. The only edge she has is that she can be Green Sunned. That's definitely an edge to be considered, but she has to survive an entire turn cycle, whereas Con Sphinx just has to survive an endstep and an upkeep to get value. IMO that's too big of a disadvantage.
Con Sphinx was in the list over Palinchron originally -- I ended up cutting it in favor of the combo element. Sphinx is better in controlly Jace lists IMO, where you can be drawing into more removal to protect your Jace.
Snake is something I'm kind of "eh" about. It's a Green Sunnable lock piece for Deadeye, which I can appreciate, but I feel like that slot would be better served as a value guy. Snake might be better in the Wishboard, because while they know you have it, it at least goes into your hand as opposed to in play via Green Sun, which wastes its trigger and makes it useless without Deadeye.
Venser, on the other hand, I will defend. Venser is a hell of a good card. You can easily form a lock with him via Karakas, and he's a solid maindeck anti-Show and Tell option who just so happens to go apeshit with Deadeye.
Venser as compared to Jace....well....honestly, I don't like Jace in this version. I'd rather have more value creatures and more spells. I still say that the closest thing to compare the deck to is to Tyrant Oath in vintage. It just sits there and plays the control deck for a while, then it combos off. Oath can abuse Jace by bouncing and recasting him repeatedly, Brainstorming each interval so as to draw your deck. Jace also helps keep Tyrant in their deck so that they can Oath into it. In legacy, though, we get to play 4 Brainstorms. I would 100% play the 4th Brainstorm over the 1st Jace in this list, and I think that I would probably play Ponder or Git Probe before any additional Jaces. This particular version just isn't a Jace deck.
And I mean, I've Jaced a LOT of people in a lot of different decks in a lot of different formats. I fully understand Jace's power. He doesn't sync up well here, though.
I love me some Zegana. The problem with Zegana here is that most of this list's dudes are all small, so you're not going to get much value out of her. You have like, Tusk and Deadeye as significant draw engines. Everything else is a 1/x or a 2/x, which translates to Draw 2 or Draw 3 respectively. Those aren't bad per se...but I feel like Zegana could do better things in a list that's more "for her," so to speak.
Thresher is hilarious. Massacre Wurm is probably better since it hits all creatures regardless of whether they fly or not, even though it is more expensive (and triple black...ugh).
At what point should we be considering Mulldrifter?
Also, what did you not like about Palinchron? From the way you worded your post, I'm assuming that you actually tested it a little and didn't like it in practice. What went wrong?
Sounds like Bruizar's list from months ago. By all means, though, post it up.
I will note that I'm not sure how much I like Nightmare in this list overall, since you can just Wish for Volrath's Stronghold. But, I'm certainly still willing to consider it.
Also, Probe+Therapy is still sick, and still an engine that I want to put in BUG versions, if I could ever find the space. I worry that it makes the deck too linear, since you're dedicating 4 slots to a straight cantrip (not even a fake Recall like Brainstorm).
Wow . . . just realized that Fierce Empath turns the Deadeye combo into a one-card combo.
1. Play Empath get Deadeye
2. Play Deadeye and bond with Empath
3. Blink Empath twice get Palinchron and win-con (Grave Titan or Kokusho): do not rebond after
getting win con
4. Generate a megaton of mana with Deadeye and Palinchron, then win.
I still say Frosted Tits is better. It's entirely possible that there's a better-still option....unfortunately Inferno Titan isn't a possibility (as that would just straight kill that turn). I'm not sure what that option is, though....and honestly, I really like Frost in this deck. It's been nothing but fantastic for me so far.
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