[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[firstshot]

My current list is:

18lands(6 fetch)

12 creatures
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
4 stifle
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 lightning bolt
1 dismember(could also be a chain lightning. But I'm also overreacting to losing to tombstalker)
1 thought scour

I'm leaning towards cutting the 4th snare for a 2nd scour or a chain lightning.

Current SB(but always in flux)
1 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge(might become 2nd grip)
2 sulfur elemental(LOL@ statiscaster)
2 spell pierce
2 pyroblast
2 rough/tumble
3 submerge
2 grafdiggers cage/sulfuric vortex

For the mirror I am currently boarding
+2 pyroblast
+3 submerge
-1 Lightning bolt
-2 daze on draw
-2 FOW(all 4 on play)

[GoblinZ]

I used to play Canadian Thresh for some time without stifle(3 spell pierce 2 snare 2 thought scour), but I too go back to the version with stifle. I think Rug with stifle is much better in Jund match up.

I am considering cutting one goyf (actually I used to play rug with 3 goyf) for the 3rd spell peirce, or one more burn spell( I have 6 now). So what do you think?

[Ziveeman]

I was an anti-stifle guy for awhile, but recently went back to it. I was playing at SCG Cincy two weekends ago and faced the following scenario: Opponent Lands player at 6 life, and maze on board. He was going to stablize next turn with Loam and multiple wastelands into tabernacle to clear my board and take me off mana. Before attacking I brainstorm and find stifle. I obv stifle the maze trigger and win. Could I have won that match after that turn, maybe, maybe not, but it would of been much harder to find land and bolt and him not having zuran orb. To me stifle is still very very good right now, hits so many things outside of obv wasteland and fetchlands. Plus imho, attacking mana bases against bug decks is a very effective strategy.

I think both of you have very valid points, in the end it really is what you feel more comfortable with. I also lost a match to Michael Tabler (high tide) with him at 2 life, had I been running scour to speed up my goose or possible chain instead of forked, I would of been smiling at victory instead of smelling that oh so close defeat.

I think people take way to much stock in over metagaming. Is metagaming important, yes, but being comfortable with your 60 is far more important because you will feel confident and the mental aspect of Magic far outweighs card choices in many cases.

Having said all that garbage, I'm curious what you guys think about keeping Force in your 60 during mirror matches. I played and lost to Ben Weinburg in that same tournament, but a timely force on my nimble seemed to win him the game. I asked him about his choice and he was of the opinion that whoever wins the nimble war would win the match. I understand his logic, but was curious how everyone else sides in the mirror.

I agree. Forked Bolt vs Chain Lightning, Thought Scour vs no Thought Scour, Spell Pierce vs Stifle, etc are all personal choices. They've all been proven to be solid choices, so it's really a matter of what you prefer.

And as for Force of Will in the mirror match, I tend to keep two in on the draw at least. I agree with Ben. Nimble Mongoose is the most important creature in the mirror. Tarmogoyf gets hit by both Submerge and Spell Snare, so as long as you can keep your opponent off Tarmogoyf, your Mongoose will probably get there.

[jin]

I was an anti-stifle guy for awhile, but recently went back to it. I was playing at SCG Cincy two weekends ago and faced the following scenario: Opponent Lands player at 6 life, and maze on board. He was going to stablize next turn with Loam and multiple wastelands into tabernacle to clear my board and take me off mana. Before attacking I brainstorm and find stifle. I obv stifle the maze trigger and win. Could I have won that match after that turn, maybe, maybe not, but it would of been much harder to find land and bolt and him not having zuran orb. To me stifle is still very very good right now, hits so many things outside of obv wasteland and fetchlands. Plus imho, attacking mana bases against bug decks is a very effective strategy.

I think both of you have very valid points, in the end it really is what you feel more comfortable with. I also lost a match to Michael Tabler (high tide) with him at 2 life, had I been running scour to speed up my goose or possible chain instead of forked, I would of been smiling at victory instead of smelling that oh so close defeat.

I think people take way to much stock in over metagaming. Is metagaming important, yes, but being comfortable with your 60 is far more important because you will feel confident and the mental aspect of Magic far outweighs card choices in many cases.

Having said all that garbage, I'm curious what you guys think about keeping Force in your 60 during mirror matches. I played and lost to Ben Weinburg in that same tournament, but a timely force on my nimble seemed to win him the game. I asked him about his choice and he was of the opinion that whoever wins the nimble war would win the match. I understand his logic, but was curious how everyone else sides in the mirror.

Bolded for truth. I think I would still take out the FOW. The card disadvantage is far too great unless your 75 runs sylvan library. I'd bring in submerge, but probably spell pierce as well since a spell pierce is pretty much a hard counter against tempo thresh. I think it would have protected your goose from FOW. I'd also use spell pierce to stop removal.

[wcm8]

I personally have never liked keeping FoW in when playing the mirror.

I generally SB like so:

-4 FoW
-3 Spell Pierce

+4 Submerge
+1 Loam
+2 REB/Pyro

I feel that Daze is good, even on the draw. It will help protect your threats, lands, and counters their threats. I also love to be able to tap out for a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, win the counter war with Daze, and return the Tropical to my hand -- thus neutralizing opposing Submerges. I occasionally cut a Daze or two on the draw and leave Spell Pierce in.

I usually try to save Submerge for the right time if I can afford to do so -- in response to a fetch, with counter backup, or with a Thought Scour in hand. Sometimes I've even used it on my own Tarmogoyf in response to my opponent's lethal Bolt.

Tight play helps, but sometimes the mirror just comes down to who draws better, especially if both players are equally skilled. Dealing with 2 early flipped Delvers protected by counters is tough for ANY deck to deal with. So is getting your early lands Wasted. If I were extremely concerned with the mirror, I would make some adjustments to the 75 -- maybe a basic Island, Scavenging Ooze, Dismember, more REBs, or Hidden Gibbons.

[Sturtzilla]

-4 FoW
-3 Spell Pierce

+4 Submerge
+1 Loam
+2 REB/Pyro

This is typically what I do in the mirror as well. It has worked for me really well. wcm8 hit the nail right on the head. The mirror is so close that many times your draw just can't beat an opposing draw. That, by no means, is a reason to play sloppy, but that is just how the game works sometimes. Hidden Gibbons is sick tech for the mirror. There were a few weeks out here at my local shop where there were like 4-5 RUG lists out of 12-16 people. So I ran them back then. It is stupid good. Either you essentially get to play a few extra Goyfs, or your opponent holds back their spells.

[jin]

The reason why I don't run REB in my SB, even if it is such a great SB card is that I feel it is redundant with Spell Pierce. It's definitely more powerful than Spell Pierce, but Spell Pierce is more versatile. I just can't seem to find the room for both REB and Spell Pierce in my SB.

[Sturtzilla]

The reason why I don't run REB in my SB, even if it is such a great SB card is that I feel it is redundant with Spell Pierce. It's definitely more powerful than Spell Pierce, but Spell Pierce is more versatile. I just can't seem to find the room for both REB and Spell Pierce in my SB.

Spell Pierce can be played around fairly easily by most decks, it isn't a hard counter. Additionally it doesn't kill resolved Delvers in the mirror and pseudo-mirrors.

[GoblinZ]

Spell Pierce can be played around fairly easily by most decks, it isn't a hard counter. Additionally it doesn't kill resolved Delvers in the mirror and pseudo-mirrors.

I'd rather to side 4 fow and 2 spell snare out for submerge, REB and loam. I donnot think spell snare is relevant in the mirror

[jin]

Spell Pierce can be played around fairly easily by most decks, it isn't a hard counter. Additionally it doesn't kill resolved Delvers in the mirror and pseudo-mirrors.

Spell Pierce is a hard counter in the mirror as well as against many combo decks. Red Blast is only applicable to match ups Tempo Thresh is already good in such as blue mirror. It's also good against Show and Tell decks, but so is Spell Pierce. Spell Pierce goes along with Tempo Thresh game plan where you try to restrict their resources. You wouldn't need to bring in Spell Pierce versus Blue Control match ups since you play a higher threat density rather than counter magic.

Any removal played in Tempo Thresh can kill Delver of Secrets. That seems somewhat minor. I'm not saying REB is not powerful, I'm just saying it isn't better than Spell Pierce as a SB card because it doesn't help with all bad match ups.

I'd rather to side 4 fow and 2 spell snare out for submerge, REB and loam. I donnot think spell snare is relevant in the mirror

Tarmogoyf

[GoblinZ]

4 submerge is enough for dealing with goyf, spell pierce can counter cantrips and stifle while spell snare is only useful with goyf when you donnot have submerge

[GoblinZ]

[QUOTE=jin;707069]Spell Pierce is a hard counter in the mirror as well as against many combo decks. Red Blast is only applicable to match ups Tempo Thresh is already good in such as blue mirror. It's also good against Show and Tell decks, but so is Spell Pierce. Spell Pierce goes along with Tempo Thresh game plan where you try to restrict their resources. You wouldn't need to bring in Spell Pierce versus Blue Control match ups since you play a higher threat density rather than counter magic.

Any removal played in Tempo Thresh can kill Delver of Secrets. That seems somewhat minor. I'm not saying REB is not powerful, I'm just saying it isn't better than Spell Pierce as a SB card because it doesn't help with all bad match ups.

Otherwise, my point is that spell pierce and REB are not uncompatible. It is not a either/or question in my opinion. I have 2 pierce in the main and one spell pierce and 2 REB in the sb. I think it is definitely right to side REB. Even though spell pierce is good against mirror, I will not bring more spell pierce in.

[jin]

Otherwise, my point is that spell pierce and REB are not uncompatible. It is not a either/or question in my opinion. I have 2 pierce in the main and one spell pierce and 2 REB in the sb. I think it is definitely right to side REB. Even though spell pierce is good against mirror, I will not bring more spell pierce in.

Of course not, but would you board OUT spell pierce? I don't play Spell Pierce in the main, so I just board in the ones that I have in my SB since I don't play REB. I just can't fit REB in a SB that has 15 cards. No room, since REB and Spell Pierce fill out similar roles in blue control/combo match ups.

[GoblinZ]

Of course not, but would you board OUT spell pierce? I don't play Spell Pierce in the main, so I just board in the ones that I have in my SB since I don't play REB. I just can't fit REB in a SB that has 15 cards. No room, since REB and Spell Pierce fill out similar roles in blue control/combo match ups.

I may board out one spell pierce and leave one in depending on situation(on the draw or on the play). REB is much better than spell pierce against blade or miracle and the 3rd spell pierce in my sb is prepared for combo.

[jin]

I may board out one spell pierce and leave one in depending on situation(on the draw or on the play). REB is much better than spell pierce against blade or miracle and the 3rd spell pierce in my sb is prepared for combo.

Not really. The only Blue spell that actually really matters is Jace, The Mind Sculptor. Outside of that, you can't disrupt any of their win conditions with REB. You don't stop Entreat the Angels. You don't stop RIP. You don't stop Helm. Against Esperblade, you don't stop SFM. You don't even stop a hard casted Batterskull with REB. I wouldn't even consider bringing it in against those decks unless I didn't have enough things to bring in. Spell Pierce hits all of those and Jace. If you can't choke out their lands to play Spell Pierce efficiently, then I'd pitch it to FOW. In those match ups, I'd rather board in threats like Sulfuric Vortex anyway.

4 submerge is enough for dealing with goyf, spell pierce can counter cantrips and stifle while spell snare is only useful with goyf when you donnot have submerge

Spell Pierce on cantrip? I'd be fine with that if we were playing the mirror. Better that than my burns. Submerge is good, but it's not better than Spell Snare. If played carefully, they can easily get their Tarmogoyf back.

[GoblinZ]

Not really. The only Blue spell that actually really matters is Jace, The Mind Sculptor. Outside of that, you can't disrupt any of their win conditions with REB. You don't stop Entreat the Angels. You don't stop RIP. You don't stop Helm. Against Esperblade, you don't stop SFM. You don't even stop a hard casted Batterskull with REB. I wouldn't even consider bringing it in against those decks unless I didn't have enough things to bring in. Spell Pierce hits all of those and Jace. If you can't choke out their lands to play Spell Pierce efficiently, then I'd pitch it to FOW. In those match ups, I'd rather board in threats like Sulfuric Vortex anyway.



Spell Pierce on cantrip? I'd be fine with that if we were playing the mirror. Better that than my burns.

I think spell piercing on cantrip also depends on situation, some times spell pierce on a brainstorm can make sense.

[wcm8]

The reason why I don't run REB in my SB,

is because you are running a sub-optimal list.

REB and Pyroblast are huge, huge incentives to play RUG. I take it you've never had to play against High Tide, any deck playing Jace, Ancestral Visions, Counterbalance, Merfolk, Vendilion Clique, Submerge, Show and Tell (they play Sol lands for a reason), etc. etc. etc. The only real decision is whether to play *just* two, or more than that.

[jin]

you are running a sub-optimal list.

You run no Stifles in a deck that plays more than 4 soft counters.

REB and Pyroblast are huge, huge incentives to play RUG. I take it you've never had to play against High Tide, any deck playing Jace, Ancestral Visions, Counterbalance, Merfolk, Vendilion Clique, Submerge, Show and Tell (they play Sol lands for a reason), etc. etc. etc. The only real decision is whether to play *just* two, or more than that.

Anybody with experience in the High Tide match up, S&T match up and the Counterbalance match up will know that the battle comes before the turn where the critical blue spells are played. If you are forced to that turn, you've probably lost already. In CB, you are trying to lock them out of resources and beat them down. In High Tide, you are trying to disrupt their sculpting and beat them down.

In other words, REB is a counter spell that only counters blue cards. I run enough counter spells. I don't need another one. Besides Merfolk where it is of relevance, Spell Pierce does the same thing in all of the other match ups. Therefore, REB is not complementary, but redundant.

[blablub]

Hey Guys,

I have a question about Saitos List. Does anyone know his boarding plan against Jund? In Fact i'm interested in the Role of the 3 Sulfuric Vortex. Is he boarding them against Jund?
In which other MatchUps are you boarding Vortex except for the control MatchUp?

thx for help :)

[jin]

Hey Guys,

I have a question about Saitos List. Does anyone know his boarding plan against Jund? In Fact i'm interested in the Role of the 3 Sulfuric Vortex. Is he boarding them against Jund?
In which other MatchUps are you boarding Vortex except for the control MatchUp?

thx for help :)

If a deck's plan is to stop you from dealing damage to them, board in Sulfuric Vortex.