I was actually thinking of writing a post in thread discussing the possibility of doubling down on LD with Sinkhole as a means to address the rise of combo. I'm glad that Richard Cheese went out and tried LD in practice. I had an idea that one way normal Jund could differentiate itself as a distinct variant of Jund that isn't just a weaker version of Punishing Jund is one that tries to emulate Pox post-board, with Sinkholes main/SB and Extirpates to rip apart combo/control decks. Since normal Jund lacks Punishing Fire and are thus more able to produce black mana, it might be a wise direction to really up the count on black spells in the deck to combat combo and control.
All I can say is this: in my Team America list, sideboard sinkholes have been awesome.
Against combo, however, I think they are hit and miss. Show and Tell/Reanimator? Spectacular. Storm and Dredge? Lacklustre
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Actually it can be pretty amazing against storm decks, and it's worlds better than Punishing Fires in that matchup. Storm decks always have greedy manabases, and keeping them off a color or blowing up their basic(s) can often be the difference between winning and losing. Where I expect it to be worse are tempo decks like RUG and BUG.Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
TES and Belcher are certainly less concerned, since they have no basics and don't need lands to combo off.
I personally like the idea, I'm just playing devil's advocate
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Belcher I'll give you, but TES really, really hates disruption targeted at its lands more than you think IMO.
I'm certain a TES pilot is far happier to see a turn two sinkhole than a turn two hymn.
LD has its merits. In this meta especially, where pfire is losing value, sinkholes can be devastating. But I think it is important also to realize its weaknesses and matchup where it is bad
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Seconded. Sinkhole is definitely better than Punishing Fire against TES when you don't draw Hymn. This seems like a cool plan. Maybe you should go up to 1 Loam main?
Did anything come out of the discussion about adding Sensei's Top to jund?
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It is hit or miss but of course its better than a recurrable shock... I mean the fact that TES only plays 12-13 lands and you play Wastelands already makes TES vulnerable. You still cant beat a god hand obviously, and the fact that TES can sometimes just hold their land until they need it. Not saying Sinkhole is bad though. Would you board it in vs Miracles at all? If you are only boarding it vs combo, wouldnt you be better off boarding something that actually beats combo like a MB Trap or something?
I board them in vs miracles always with TA. hitting their only plains can really screw them over.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
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Yep, as a miracles player, Sinkholing my basics is very bad news for me.
Glad to see that Sinkhole didn't just get shot down. Like I said, it just felt like old-school LD, just mean in a dirty way...greasy even. I would really like to fit a single Loam in there, I'm just not sure where.
I think my next step will be figuring out what to board in when it's bad, namely RUG and BUG. Maybe just more burn, or possibly Edict if Divert becomes the answer of choice to this deck.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Divert still works on Edict though?
I like the idea of Sinkhole in the sideboard for the mirror.
Really, I think Jund usually has a positive against all the fair decks we should really just be packing sideboard hate for combo and for the mirror.
What are your guy's thoughts on adding Boom // Bust as backup to Sinkhole? A 3-1 split?
Cascading into Armageddon? Sounds good to me
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Revealing Boom//Bust with Bob makes you lose 8 life, it's too risky. I'm not sure about Sinkhole itself, BUG does play it in the sideboard but it can filter it out in the late game, and also it can end games faster with evasive beaters like Delver and Stalker. Our own creatures have a much lower power to cost ratio on average, so we don't have as much to gain from generating tempo, if that makes sense.
Hah! Totally brainfarted that one and forgot that you still have to target a player. Do you think Punishing Fire is integral to the decks matchup against other fair decks? Sinkhole could definitely be a board card, I'm just maindecking it in our meta because it's 80% combo and 20% control.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Your opponent can't Divert a Cruel Edict, FWIW.
Last edited by Shawon; 03-07-2013 at 10:17 AM.
I do think PFires is absolutely key to winning against fair decks and helps greatly against control.
Against fair decks, you get to wipe out all the X/2's with 3 mana and X/4's with 5 mana on top of winning 'goyf fights.
Against control, Pfires is a great answer to Jace and really keeps him from getting out of control. It also has a side benefit of killing SFM's, Cliques, Vensers and even Batterskull germs (repeatedly) as well.
Do you think it's that risky if Boom / Bust is a 1-of? I wouldn't MD the card, just as a 1-of in the SB against control only, whereas Sinkhole has other applications. I would take the chance of losing 8 life I probably wouldn't need against control if I have the opportunity to do serious damage to the opponent's manabase with either half of the card.
Guys, if you are concerned about TES, please just switch decks. Jund kills fair stuff. Jund dies to unfair stuff. Hell, it cannot even beat a turn 3 EtW for 14+. That's like the worst a TES deck coughs up normally. I'd recommend making sure you beat all the fair stuff, and have versatile sideboard cards that work against both control and combo (more discard, REB's, Surgicals, perhaps a few Pulses). Good TES players will just kill you. Against a bad one, or an unlucky one, you have a chance. But never more than just a chance.
I would say that against strong TES-players, your matchup will be somewhere around 20-25 / 75-80.
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