The testing of banned cards?

[Megadeus]

I know Carsten usually posts his articles in here, but I just read it and would love to hear anyones opinions. Seems like a fun trial if nothing else. Maybe Phazon Mutant and AlphaStryk could try it out on their stream some night!

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...he-Banned.html

My personal one was Nic Fit with Skullclamp... Maybe Im thinking way too fair, but T1 Explorer, T2 clamp, equip, play explorer, equip again or something nutty like that seems soooo sweet.

[leegoo]

Despite clamp being sweet in Nic Fit, my cube experience leads me to believe that Clamp + Stoneforge is not healthy for a format. To say nothing of the tribal decks (and maybe affinity)

Good article, even if it mentions Flash and unbanning in it.

[(nameless one)]

Balance is the missing piece in Parfait.

Memory Jar in MUD also sounds interesting.

[Lemnear]

Tbh unbanning Bargain and Jar would have less of an impact than nutty shit like Flash, Necro or Skullclamp. Flash isn't healthy for any metagame; the Deck proved it in vintage and legacy. Stoneforge + Lingering Souls + Skullclamp Sounds stupid as fuck.

[Shawon]

I would love to try Imperial Seal in Esper Affinity.

[Viridia]

Or you know, just use Vampiric Tutor? :P

[Shawon]

Or you know, just use Vampiric Tutor? :P

Under the assumption that Imperial Seal would probably be unbanned before Vampiric Tutor ever would. EDIT: Though if I could choose any card to unban that fits Carsten's criteria that would fit in my Esper Affinity deck, it would probably be Skullclamp based on sheer power alone. But I've been thinking about trying out Imperial Seal in goldfishing just for fun, and because I think it has the best chance of being unbanned compared to other black tutors such as Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Demonic Consultation. I would choose Demonic Tutor as the most applicable black tutor to run in Affinity.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Happy to see so much interest - first time someone linked one of my articles before me^^ I still made my own post - tradition and actual feedback on the article would be appreciated. Anyway I feel the "project" deserves its own thread to explore concepts independent from my article (if there are enough interested participants) so this seems like a good spot to make that happen.

Some answers:
@Megadeus: for the banned against banned battles, Skullclamp NicFit honestly seems very fair. To check out if the card would be broken in that kind of shell against current Legacy decks otoh it sounds like a fun project.

@leegoo: Skullclamp + Stoneforge is not healthy for a format? Maybe, but considering the approach allows you to unban stuff like Necro, Flash and Will, that interaction seems very fair to me, actually. The power level of these decks will probably end up quite close to Vintage and Skullclamp does diddly there. Also, I don't expect Flash to prove fair for unbanning, for the record :p

@(nameless one): Balance Parfait indeed does sound promising. That deck actually has a good reason to run all the artifact mana to enable broken early Balances.

@Shawon: Imperial Seal (assuming a reprint) does make the most sense probability wise. The best tutor by far - especially in a 4-of deck like Affinity - is definitely Consultation, not Demonic Tutor, though. It has basically zero disadvantage and gains instant speed and costing 1 less.

[Arianrhod]

Clamp would probably be a marginal option in Nic Fit, but I don't see it being huge for the archetype. Obviously it's the nut high with Explorer, but considering that the point of Nic Fit is to ramp beyond what legacy traditionally considers acceptable as a bomb, Clamp's going to get beyond the point of being useful very quickly. Clamping a Baneslayer or a Thragtusk is profoundly boring.

Clamp would do four things: Affinity, Combo Elves (as per vintage), Esperblade with Lingering Souls, and probably a B/W Deadguy-style deck with Bitterblossom, Bob, Stoneforge, and Clamp. I don't see Clamp having a large impact outside of those four decks, however, those four decks are probably sufficiently stupid to justify keeping it banned.

Also, it's relevant to consider the political/PR backlash of some of these in the experiment. Even should the day happen when Clamp is considered fair, somehow, WotC won't want to unban it because of the negative stigma attached to it.

Bargain would be the absolute stone nuts for Nic Fit, at least the Rector version, and the others would probably run it as like a 2-of as well. Demonic/Vampiric/Seal wouldn't be horrible, but they wouldn't be hyper-amazing either. The versions of Nic Fit that want Demonic Tutor already have it, because they get to run Diabolic Intent. As for Survival....Nic Fit probably just returns to something resembling what Rec/Sur was, although with some updates, obviously.

Flash should never be allowed in anything. It boggles my mind that it's allowed in EDH.

Oath would be actually just sweet to unban. I have absolutely no idea how I would even go about building it, but good lord it would be awesome. I don't really have a group of people to derp with this with, sadly, but I think that if I was going to pick any one card, it would be Oath.

[.Ix]

Clamp would do four things: Affinity, Combo Elves (as per vintage), Esperblade with Lingering Souls, and probably a B/W Deadguy-style deck with Bitterblossom, Bob, Stoneforge, and Clamp. I don't see Clamp having a large impact outside of those four decks, however, those four decks are probably sufficiently stupid to justify keeping it banned.

Zombardment would probably LOVE Skullclamp.

[Arianrhod]

Zombardment would probably LOVE Skullclamp.

Oh yeah, good call. I keep forgetting that's still a thing -- it hasn't put up any results lately in big events, and nobody plays it locally. My bad.

[Megadeus]

Yeah Maybe Nic Fit would be worse off but you could build a version with it. Deranged Hermit with clamp ftw!

I may have to Convince my group to proxy some decks just for the fun of things though. Im sure I already know one of the guys would love to play Survival of some kind...

[Barook]

Oath would be actually just sweet to unban. I have absolutely no idea how I would even go about building it, but good lord it would be awesome. I don't really have a group of people to derp with this with, sadly, but I think that if I was going to pick any one card, it would be Oath.

Legacy is a pretty creature-centric format (not as creature-centric as Standard, though).

Introducing Oath would just be really, really ugly.

[Koby]

Putting Skullclamp in a fair creature deck doesn't really highlight the strength of the card. Sure, drawing cards is good for those decks but that's not a criteria that should be used when considering whether a card is unhealthy for the format. I suspect a variation of Elves is one of the most unfair shells to put Skullclamp into, considering they have a meaningful way of winning the same turn too.

I have a Necropotence deck to share once we determine the actual thread for posting these lists to.

[Megadeus]

I mean I guess go ahead and post here! I can Edit the OP with everyones list that they are testing.

[Arianrhod]

Legacy is a pretty creature-centric format (not as creature-centric as Standard, though).

Introducing Oath would just be really, really ugly.

I'm actually working on an Oath list now, and I'd like to highlight a few problems that have -already- come up:

Maverick in general exists. Krosan Grip is actually played because 3 mana isn't too much for the format. TES exists.

Mox Diamond / Chrome Mox are nowhere even remotely as good as the original Moxen.

There's no tutors. No Demonic, Mystical, Vampiric, Seal, and so forth to tie it together. You DO have 4 Brainstorms, though, which is a huge +++ for Oath. However, it's still just a 2-card combo, and half of it dies to Wasteland. Best you've got is Enlightened Tutor, Intuition, and Crop Rotation. Good luck with that.

You're giving your opponents beaters. I've died in Vintage to Spirit Tokens, and I'm sure Legacy wouldn't be any different. Sometimes you can't find / can't stick / can't protect an Oath. This seems normal, but consider it, if you will. You can't really run removal, because you want your opponents to have creatures. But, wait! They have creatures, and you don't have Oath, nor do you have removal to stop yourself from dying. That's really, really bad.

Oath creatures suck.
^a. Karakas is everywhere, and because of Show/Tell strategies, the best creatures won't get you there. Griselbrand and Emrakul are basically unplayable as straight Oath dudes. Golden Gun variants with Blightsteel and Emrakul being hasty from Dragon Breath is the "best" combo win condition, and even that has serious problems.
^b. Rune-scarred and Sun Titan are off the table, because there's no Vault/Key to go infinite with. There's also no Time Walk to recur with Rune-Scarred Demon.
^c. Iona/Elephant Oath is "meh" at best. Iona suffers from 3-color decks, Jace TMS, and Karakas. Elephant simply doesn't do enough.
^d. Weirder combo shells can't exist, because Narcomoeba doesn't interact favorably with Oath. You can try to flashback Past in Flames, but good luck getting the mana while protecting yourself.
^e. Tidespout Tyrant can't exist, because, again, there's no original Moxen, Mana Vault, or anything like that to go infinite with. I guess you could make it work with 2x Grim Monolith, but eugh. Also, no Gush.

Like, think about it from an actual game standpoint.

Let's take a fairly standard creature deck. Let's say something like RUG. Now, if RUG has an average hand, they have a t1 Delver with a counterspell backup of some kind. We can go Trop, Mox Diamond, Oath. They Daze. Or they Force. Or we Force back. Let's say Oath resolves and we aren't just completely boned up the ass. Their Delver flips with something irrelevant, they Brainstorm and sculpt, and drop a Monguise that isn't ready to flip yet. Okay, sure. We Oath up something. See the above rules of creature selection. That means your best guy is probably something like Sphinx of Uthuun. You Fact or Fiction when he comes in, draw your card, okay, cool. They swing in. You block the Delver and they Bolt your Sphinx, so it trades. They slam a Goyf.

You Oath again. Goyf's almost certainly bigger than your Sphinx now, and you're REALLY close to milling out (since Oath usually only runs 2-3 creatures). You can't Flashback Memory's Journey -> Yawg Will and cast your graveyard to win that turn. Best thing you've got available is something like Gaea's Blessing. There's a winner, boy. That means you can't have any graveyard interaction at all.

I'm sure that it's not as bad as that example makes it out as being. There's obviously a lot of room to develop it and it's vastly too early to say that Oath isn't "good enough." But keep in mind that one of Oath's bad matchups in vintage is Noble Fish. Don't forget that we still have things like Leyline of Sanctity and Grafdigger's Cage, both of which see legitimate sideboard play even before considering Oath is in the format (which, if it was, both of those cards would doubtlessly see more play).

[Megadeus]

This is good though right? Isn't the purpose of this to show that some of these cards do not need to be banned anymore?

Also Carsten I didnt mean to like steal your thunder or anything with this thread... I just thought it would be a very cool thing to work on.

[Arianrhod]

This is good though right? Isn't the purpose of this to show that some of these cards do not need to be banned anymore?

Also Carsten I didnt mean to like steal your thunder or anything with this thread... I just thought it would be a very cool thing to work on.

I think it's both good and bad. It's a fun thought experiment and might very well, best case, make for a weird Sourcer alternative format for meetups at GPs and shit.

But think about it. I'm of the opinion, personally, that banned lists are generally a negative influence upon a game. All you need to do to see a shining example of this is Modern. I was all a-fire for Modern at first....then they banned every fun card in the entire format, and now I couldn't give a rat's ass. I recognize the importance of having a banned list, because things like Flash, Lotus, Recall, etc should never be unbanned. Just the way it is. Some things ARE too good. You can't have a game with the depth and breadth of Magic without that being the case.

But I would caution against thinking that just because something CAN be unbanned, that it SHOULD be. Most unbans are harmless. Monolith, Time Spiral, Land Tax -- all of these come immediately to mind as examples of cards that were not only safe unbans in general, but they barely influenced the format. The types of cards that we're talking about here, like Oath, Survival, Necro, Bargain, and so on....those will not fade into the background. They will fundamentally change the fabric of legacy by their mere existence, and we have to accept that that could happen.

Look at Misstep. While Misstep was legal, probably a half dozen archetypes straight up died, because they couldn't co-exist in that format. These cards induce paradigm-shifts, and I worry about this notion that we should be trying to prove that these cards are "safe" somehow. I look at it the opposite way. We should be attempting to prove that these cards are still unsafe, and if in the process we happen to find a few more Land Taxes while having fun being broken, then so be it.

Historical anecdote: Oath of Druids was never banned for power-level. Wizards specifically called Oath's banning "a life-time achievement award." Even if Oath COULD co-exist with 2/3 of the current existing legacy archetypes, it probably WOULD erase that remaining 1/3, just by existing. At what point would we be okay with that, from a theoretical/philosophical standpoint? How many decks is it "okay" to kill?

[leegoo]

@leegoo: Skullclamp + Stoneforge is not healthy for a format? Maybe, but considering the approach allows you to unban stuff like Necro, Flash and Will, that interaction seems very fair to me, actually. The power level of these decks will probably end up quite close to Vintage and Skullclamp does diddly there. Also, I don't expect Flash to prove fair for unbanning, for the record :p

ok... it MIGHT be fair in THAT format :)

I wouldn't know, I'd be playing Flash until it was re-banned, then Necro until it was re-banned

[TsumiBand]

Oath would be boring, if only because it's just another "derp fat derp" in line with like, Sneak Show and Reanimator and similar ilk. That said, if I had to pick between Oath and S&T, I'd rather pick the one I can Krosan Grip and/or Abrupt Decay.

It's good that people are actively testing lists with banned cards on them, it's important to question the wisdom of keeping so many cards on the banlist. Legacy is pretty notable for its delicate use of the banhammer, I think the only eternal format with a smaller B-list is Commander, which isn't necessarily 'official' so whatever. There are a handful of nightmares I'd rather never see come off though.