I've been having a lot of fun with the following transformational sideboards, just using Caleb Durward's stock list.
Beatdown/Discard SB:
4 Bitterblossom
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
Snapcaster could be something better, but a lot of decks are ill-prepared to handle a stream of faeries, or Confidant's CA. Jitte makes everything a real threat. You cut all of the Goryo's, all of the fatties, entombs, and 2 shallow grave. I could see running Phyrexian Negator if you had Texas-sized balls.
I also like this sideboard
Storm Combo
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Chain of Vapor
This sideboard looks like it would work even better for Jacob Kory's list from Vegas. You cut mostly the same cards above, after which your deck looks like only slightly goofy Storm. Good versus GY hate, not great versus counterbalance.
We do not use Cunning Wish or Intuition a lot so far, that's not to play the same stuff which would eat up half your life and waste CoK's purpose.Originally Posted by dropsaway
I played Koby's list at a 71 person Legacy event on Saturday.
Match 1 vs helm
Game 1: (I'm on the draw) turn 2 Rest in Peace, loss
Game 2: I turn 2 Grissy and Emmy, win
Game 3: turn 1 Graft diggers cage, loss
1-2
Match 2 vs Show and Tell (0-1)
Game 1: I turn 2, opponent scoops, win
Game 2: Opponent has Leyline of Santity, we battle, I cast discard (targetting self) and bin effects, my opponent responds with counter magic. Opponent casts Show and Tell, we both reveal Gris, legend rule. I untap, goryo's vengeance my Griselbrand into play, entomb for Emrakrul shallow grave, Swing for 22, win
2-0
Match 3 vs RUG Delver (1-1)
Game 1: I mull to 5 and Delver gets there, loss
Game 2: Turn 3 I play silence and combo out, win
Game 3: Oppont mulls to 5, I combo out turn 2, win
2-1
Match 4 vs RUG Delver (2-1)
Game 1: I dig and can't get a gris into the bin through counter magic, I die to delver with 5 reanimation spells in hand, loss
Game 2: I ponder, he plays graft digger's cage. I can't find my outs and Delver gets there, loss
0-2
Match 5 vs RUG Delver (2-2)
Game 1: I combo off dark ritual after a game of mana denial, win
Game 2: I lose to surgical extraction, and I don't find a pull from eternity, Delver gets there, loss
Game 3: Mana denial, I lose to surgical, Delver gets there, loss
2-1
2-3, I drop.
Tournament notes:
-graft diggers cage is pretty good, I want a back up plan like sb show and tell.
-Silence is very good, and could be used proactively to keep threats from being cast to buy time while digging.
-Considering Annul because it hits graft diggers cage and rest in peace
-Cabal Therapy should be used aggressively to find surgical extraction/hate post board.
-I found I won more games with Gitaxian Probe in the deck, than sided out.
-Rug is a tough match up, Pull from eternity should be 3 cards minimum.
-Helm is a very tough match up. Mulling is especially important here.
-I think ground seal in theory looks like better tech than pull from eternity, will need to test
-abrupt decay looks better than echoing turn right now, i think leyline of the void is not seeing much play.
Last edited by Tormod; 03-11-2013 at 09:48 PM.
After draw 14 cards with griselbrand halves of losing hit points would be tragic? to get a good answer to win the game? but understand that this card would only be a silver bullet.
Anyway, Keep playing and we play against hates.
seems like something got weird there lol?
The things is, I like my silver bullets to be effective as much before comboing than after drawing 14. To that regard, loosing life before comboing is not worth it at all. In addition, casting a ccm=3 after comboing means casting it at the expense of LP/Mox and DR. At that state of the game, Entomb + reanimate effects do the same, but those cards are actually essential before comboing as well.
Hope you see my point.
In any case,thx for contributing to try to solve the hate problems or the efficiency/consistancy of the pack.
I really don't think this deck can support any of the Wish variants when not running Lion's Eye Diamond. The additional mana required is just backbreaking.
Also - I disagree that Ground Seal is a better sideboard option than Pull from Eternity. Especially if we're already running white, we don't need to splash for another color to cast spells (same reason I'm not a huge fan of Abrupt Decay). Furthermore, Ground Seal shuts off Goryo's Vengeance and Reanimate, leaving you with only Shallow Grave to combo off with. I don't think that's enough, personally.
Looking forward to the SCG Indy report, btw! Also, we need to finish the primer before we can hit Established...
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
lol, yah that doesn't make any sense at all.
I think I had discard, and i was using it to get a gris into the bin, and he kept countering my bin effects.
thanks for catching it, my bad.
O gawd. Well, I just posted a super-long report and then lost it, so if anyone knows where to find posts that were supposedly "Saving" as I typed, let me know. Long story short, I went 6-2-1 at SCG with the deck and got 33rd. It was a blast. My list had no white, 4 Griz, 8 Discard spells, 0 Probes, 2 Reanimates. I think that about sums it up. Oh, the sideboard was 4 SnT, 4 Abrupt Decay, 4 Pithing Needle, 3 Surgical Extraction. I never used the Needles, never used the Extractions, though maybe I could've in some matchups, used the Decays a few times but only used all four against Helm, and used all four Show and Tells constantly.
EDIT: Found it!
I played TinFins at Indy and went 6-2-1. Took bad notes and have bad memory, but here goes:
Round 1 - RIP/Helm: Rest in peace indeed. I end up drawing here, which is not bad for what on paper obviously looks like our worst matchup. Game one he searches for and plays RIP. I don't remember if I'd attempted to combo off before it but regardless, I'm one turn away from hardcasting Griselbrand when he savagely peels Helm off the top for the win. Because magic is a game of skill.
Game two I think I attempt to go off turn one and my reanimation is countered; turn two I peel another one and go off. Because magic is a game of skill. Game three I punt away. I cast Reanimate on Griselbrand and have to wait til next turn to combo off. He has Counterbalance out so when I cast Reanimate into it I see a Force on top. He draws the Force and passes. I swing, then draw 14. I have an Abrupt Decay and a Thoughtseize in hand. I try Thoughtseize for the Force and he flips Brainstorm off Counterbalance. If I Decay that first I probably win. It ends when I can't finish him, he Swords's my Griz on his turn, and we go to turns. In turns I attempt to Show and Tell a Griselbrand and he blind flips (off a new Counterbalance; I obviously Decay'd the other one) a random Entreat. FML. I wouldn't have been able to win but maybe could have convinced him to scoop with Griz in play. Instead we draw. I'm feeling good after almost getting there in the worst MU.
Round 2 - Jund: Game one he goes first, I go off my turn one; he scoops on seeing Griz (not a terrible move in the draw bracket I guess). Game two I mull to 5 (I mull a lot that day as a whole. I won't always mention it. Welcome to playing a 13 land deck). He gets two Shaman going active and my mull is bad so I have no chance. He tells me after the match that he had a Mindbreak Trap in hand and would've hardcast it with the Shamans if need be. Game three I cast Reanimate on Griz turn one and he scoops.
Round 3 - U/R Delver: For budgetary reasons, he has only one Force of Will in the deck. I win the first game easily as all I see from him is a Mountain and a Goblin Guide. Game two he comes out with double Relic, but at one point casts a Delver with only two lands in play. My turn I play a reanimation spell, he cracks a Relic in response, I cast my second reanimation spell in response, and he loses because he cast that Delver. We play a third as well and he keeps all burn in hopes of putting me too low to go off; I make him discard a Bolt turn 1 and go off turn 2.
Round 4 - BUG?: This is the only match where my memory completely fails me. My notes say that I won game one and game three, and that at one point his hand had a Flusterstorm, Force, and four land in it including a Creeping Tar Pit. I do remember that game (game three) taking the Force and using a Dark Ritual to pay for Flusterstorm. That involved a little math and I was very proud of myself, haha.
Round 5 - Maverick: Game one he goes first, GSZ for Dryad Arbor. I cast one of two Thoughtseizes in hand and see Thalia, Teeg, Mom, Jitte, Fauna Shaman. At first I think I audibly say "oh crap" but he apparently does not pick up on this, so I take Thalia as the less obvious of the two hate cards. Second turn he rips Hierarch and plays Hierarch and Mom. Turn two I Thoughtseize Teeg away. He probably knows he's screwed since I took the anti-combo card and not, like, Jitte, so turn three he swings for two with exalted Arbor in a last-ditch attempt to do some damage, but I go off unhampered on my turn three. Game two he goes first, accelerates mana with something, I go, nothing too relevant, he goes turn two Knight (guess he didn't want to mull to hate), I go Reanimate on Griselbrand, eventually I draw 7, swing, draw 7, go up to 26 with Children and combo out.
Round 6 - Esper Stoneblade: There's about two hours between that match and my next one and I'm only slightly exaggerating. Not to blame this for my loss here; my opponent Bernie is a hell of a magic player and I hope to be half as good someday. He also is playing a deck that can attack me with discard and counters, and his deck is full of foils and black bordered foreign duals. OK, enough about that. Game one it looks like I start with a Thoughtseize and go off turn two. My Thoughtseize took a Spell Pierce and that was his only protection. Game two I Thoughtseize him and see two Forces, Jace, Stoneforge, Wasteland, Snapcaster. I don't remember what happens but I'm unable to fight through all of that after probably taking a Force. He beats me down with Batterskull and Stoneforge. Game three I keep a terrible seven with Chrome Mox as my only mana, no blue cards, and an Entomb. I don't remember if i even had a reanimation spell, but I didn't have the mana to play it or the cards to dig for it, or the blue to play those cards if I'd drawn them. I Thoughtseize him after he plays his Stoneforge but he counters it and is able to get the Batterskull down again, if I remember correctly. He also Cliques me and my hand is so bad he lets me keep it. I probably lost this matchup due to a combination of being outplayed, him having the answers, and keeping bad hands.
Round 7 - Esper Stoneblade: Finally I'm feeling the pain of being in the draw bracket. This one was more of a tilt/misplay loss, at least game one. He basically hits me with a Thoughtseize turn one, counters all of what I want to do, and I finally resolve a Reanimate on Griz but he plays Jace and bounces it. I could've potentially grinded it out; probably would've lost it anyway but going from 15 to 7 at my own hand didn't help. Worst part is I knew he had the Jace, and I may have even knew he had the land. I also got so lazy/tilty that I stopped writing down what he had off my Thoughtseizes, clearly willing to throw away this great record I was lucky to have. Aaaaaaanyway, then there was game two, and this happened:
Because I'm an idiot. So of course my kind friend Doug would like me to take a moment to remind you:
I also lost game two, unsurprisingly, mostly from getting my cantrips countered, and having my Show and Tells and Griselbrands Extracted.
Round 8 - Sneak Attack: After that match I decided I wasn't losing another one, at least not to myself. Game one I attempt a Thoughtseize and he Dazes it, and I go off without seeing anything more from him. Game two is more of the same; he Brainstorms in response to my Thoughtseize, then Dazes it, then I go off next turn. I'm not sure what he had or if that line made any sense, or if he was protecting his pieces, but he's so much slower than me that I think he should just try to counter me and then go off.
Round 9 - Sneak Attack: After that less stress-free match, I'm pretty psyched to see another Volcanic Island come down. Game one I start with fetchland, Dark Ritual, Entomb. He counters it. I cast a second Entomb. It resolves. I cast Reanimate targeting Griselbrand. Yeah, it was pretty dumb luck, but after this long day I'll take it. I try to go off but end up just winning off Griselbrand attacks. Game two is pretty funny, at least from my perspective. My hand is two land, Dark Rit, Entomb, three reanimation effects. I attempt a turn one Ritual, to which he says "I'm not falling for this again" and counters it. I'm pretty sure countering Entomb is always correct unless you have graveyard hate in hand or on board, BUT he tried that last game and it didn't work so this time he counters the Rit. I wait a turn, peel a Petal and go off on my turn two. AND, for the grand finale, and for the first time today, I go through the whole deck a few times and hardcast Emrakul. Because Emrakul.
Sorry for that wall of text, folks, but there's my SCG experience in a nutshell with the deck. I had a ton of fun and felt like it had game against anything, though obviously my kryptonite is good magic players piloting Stoneblade. Would be glad to get feedback, answer questions, etc.
Props:
St. Elmo's forever and always
Doug, for those great pictures as well as selling me many cards for the deck, and loaning me 4x Show and Tell
Marriott Hotel, for cleaning up that room
Slops:
Staying up til 4:30am Saturday night for no reason
No practice
Being 33rd on tiebreakers. Specifically, being the one out of twelve people with my record that was not in the top 32. D:
Last edited by kihachi; 03-12-2013 at 05:18 PM.
Nice report, kihachi, congrats on placing in the money!
How do you feel about your list moving forward? Any need to remove S&T or add Silence?
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
For the transformational sideboard plan, has anyone considered LotV/Helm? They'll never see it coming, and turns their sideboarded hate into dead cards at worst and helpful at best.
Something like:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Spoils of the Vault
2 Rest in Peace
1 Duress/Thoughtseize/IoK
Yes, we've considered it. As exciting as it sounds, it's a 9 mana. 2 card combo against everyone except for Miracles with no sideboard cards for every other matchup.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
How do you guys feel about bitter ordeal as a SB card? It might be interesting anti-hate tech. My initial thoughts are that it will be too slow, but I think it merits some testing. Taking RIP out of a miracles deck sounds like a solid way to shore up that match up, and due o the gravestorm, flusterstorm and mindbrek trap are the only cars that effectively counter it.
But now that I think about it, open game 2 with fetchland, dark rit, bitter ordeal-remove the 3 hate cards your opponent put in his deck. Sounds interesting.
The biggest problem with Cap effects (besides costing a million mana) is that they don't deal with hate that they've drawn before you Cap them. We care about enough varieties of cards that Cranial Extraction effects are bad too (again, besides costing a million mana).
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
The problem with that is that you're still reliant on the graveyard, as Gravestorm cares about permanents, not cards. Definitely useful mid-combo, to Extract hate form your opponent's deck.
If Cap'ing is the goal, then Sadistic Sacrament is the way to go; it plays perfectly off a Ritual.
EDIT: I doubt that Capping is the way to go.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
I had this thought the other day, and I thought I would bring it up for discussion.
Tin Fins is a 2 card in hand 3 mana combo. Flash / Hulk (what some to believe the best deck in Legacy ever) was a 2 card in hand 2 mana combo deck.
Tin Fins currently has 21 combo pieces including the discard whereas the most successful versions of Flash Hulk builds had 16 combo pieces surrounded with enablers namely Mystical Tutor. Reference & Reference
Is it possible there could be a build of Tin Fins that adopt a similar plan? Something like:
Combo Suite (17)
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
4 Dark Ritual
Cantrips / Filter (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
Disruption Suite (15)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Gitaxian Probe or Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
Mana (16)
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
4 Lotus Petal
This build gives you "answers" to common hate in the form of aggressive free tempo based counters. (the only thing this will not stop is Leyline of the Void.) Since Mystical Tutor is now banned this list looks to it slightly less powered Lim-Dul's Vault Lim-Dul's Vault effectively gives you Entomb or Shallow Grave 5-8. Lim-Dul's Vault will also allow for a toolbox sideboard. Is there any merit in perusing a deck like that?
I know it has been said here a few times that the deck should be more proactive as opposed to reactive, but I can't help from seeing some parallels to former powerhouse.
This is a very interesting build. I'm actually excited to see this, and built it, and play it. I suspect that the Lim-dul's Vault might be 1 too many, and in place go for Goryo's Vengeance to make the combo phase a little more smooth. It will be determined through playtesting.
The idea of playing this list with Force of Will gets me hot & bothered. Totally dig it!
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Well, the main deck you proposed has the same shell as the one I played something like 2 years ago (Ooze Combo).
I'll write it down just for comparison even though the combo is different.
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lim Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
As you see the search part is the same: ponders, brainstorms, lim Dul's vault all help to find the missing combo piece.
I think this is a viable option changing the combo cards:
Buried Alive -> Entomb
4 Ooze Pieces -> 2 Griselbrand, Emrakul, Children
Personal Tutor -> Probe
And so on..
Unfortunately I still haven't had a chance to test this changed list, but I will. I just began playing Tin Fins so I still have to see what I like and what I dislike from the "standard" list (Kobe's).
Anyways I think that the deck has potential, even though I feel it will mulligan a lot..
Team Stimato
He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
This man must be a Jedi.
Wow. This list is awesome! I want to go out and try it... Great connection!
On first glance I'd want to shave a Daze, an LDV, and a Therapy for 2 Thoughtseize and a land, but that's just theorycrafting. Getting 1-2 Goryo's Vengeance in there seems like would be good too. The only way to find out is data! *scurries off to test*
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I also like Freggles Idea. With the 12 Cantrip and 2 Griselbrand Version and the 10 Cantrip and 4 Griselbrand Version I chained up to 6 Cantrip in one game and still did not find an Entomb or a Griselbrand + discard. As a result I also was wondering if we can find a Tutor for this deck. After Alliances was way before my time I didn’t considered Lim-Dûl’s Vault but I was considering Spoils of the Vault. Lim-Dûl’s Vault seems to have greater chances to archive what is needed. The only thing which I didn’t like about Freggles List on paper is the low amount of Mana Sources. It has 12 Lands + 4 Dark Ritual + 4 Lotus Petal compared to 14 Lands + 4 Dark Ritual + 4 Lotus Petal + 2 Chrome Mox of regular TinFin builds. Even with 14 lands I had a bunch of no land hands and even with 4 Lotus Petal and 2 Chrome Mox the most common way to lose after having a Griselbrand in play involved not finding Artifact Mana in up to 21 cards. Both problems only seem to increase with Freggles list.
Another Idea I am pondering, is if we need another back up plan then Tendrils. It doesn’t matter if the attack kill or the storm kill both kills require a previous Griselbrand in play. If we have a backup plan is it not better if this plan can also work if we don’t get Griselbrand into play but complement the Griselbrand plan if we get Griselbrand into play? Tendrils can complement Griselbrand well in this Deck but it can’t work without Griselbrand in this deck. However so far I have no Idea what this could be. Did anyone else thought about that topic?
I was playing two Grand Prix Trials with Tin Fins this weekend and for a couple of reasons I wasn’t doing very well. I discovered a few things here. The MUD Match Ups is nearly as bad as the RIP Miracle Match Up especially on the draw. How great you had a turn 1 Chalice of the Void, I have Entomb, Dark Ritual, 1 Mana Discard, 1 Mana Cantrips to dig for my reanimation spell and a Land *gg*. A Trinitysphere, my three Mana Dark Ritual is really a nice acceleration. Against other fast combo Decks like Storm you really should have Silence in the opening Hand or win the die roll or you lose knowing that the turn after they killed you, you could have killed them. After nearly everyone was playing combo to defeat Jund, this happened quit often. Especially during the larger one of both events I was just questing myself why I did not played RIP Miracles in this metagame. If other had the same Idea I think you can imagine what that will mean for TinFins in the near future. Especially after two wins from RIP Miracles in the last two SGC Open seem to support the idea that right now the right time for RIP Miracles has come. At least until everyone jumps onto the RIP Miracles Bandwagon and as a result give the Anti-Miracle Decks the chance to come back with a vengeance.
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