BUG is generally considered a good matchup. Here's my deck for reference. It's very similar to LSV's list with a few minor tweaks:Originally Posted by Reagens
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Priest of Titania
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
2 Crop Rotation
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Gaea's Cradle
Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Scavenging Ooze
I generally board out 1 quirion ranger, 1 heritage druid, 1 priest of titania, 2 crop rotation and bring in 2 abrupt decay, 1 qasali pridemage, 1 progenitus, 1 natural order. The progenitus is very hard for them to deal with and usually wins the game. In general, I try to get the visionary engine going. I usually glimpse to bait a counter. If they don't counter, it becomes ancestral recall most of the time.
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I don't think we need another thread, but I think this primer MUST be updated. I mean, new elves players that start reading this primer find suboptimal card choices like weird harvest, chord of calling and so on, and don't find the card we run nowadays in BGW lists. We can't think that everyone has the time and will to read the whole thread ; now that we have an optimized and very competitive list I think that someone must update the primer with the most common choices of today's decklists.
I'll try to draft up a primer this weekend and post it for review by Sunday or Monday night. You guys can tear it apart then.
I know my list isn't the best, but I'm working towards it. I was even thinking about picking up my playset of DRS soon. But for now, I can only play MonoG because I already spent too much on Goblins, lol.
I don't really care that neuElves is now a $1k deck, I'll just piece it together slowly and have a list to call my own.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
Okay. That's fine. But when you go around suggesting, as you did in post #3085 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post708237) that we should all start working off of a "core list" based on your admittedly budget-minded and not-really-optimized-nor-tourney-proven list, then what are we really discussing?
I don't see dudes in the BUG/RUG/Miracles forums suggesting budget lists just because they can't find a Scalding Tarn to tie their shoes with. I understand that Elves players have a tendency to be newer players and cardpools are sometimes an issue, sure. (And please don't think I'm accusing just you. Plenty of other posters have been doing this too.) But when people go around suggesting budget lists to play just because they don't have the cardpool to support the most optimized version of the deck, well, then we aren't MTG The Source. We are MTG Salvation.
TLDR: There should be zero posts going forward that suggest budget lists. This is supposed to be the premier site for Legacy discussion. We should all assume other posters are baller enough to pick up a playset of Deathrite Shaman or Verdant Catacombs or whatever.
I used to play Elves back when it was Gw and sorry if the core is wrong, I just liked GoboLords way of posting decklists, I don't care what the "core" is actually. It just makes it easier to read if only the cards that are switched and whatnot, I don't need to see DRS, Heritage and such since I know they're in it.
If we just write:
Core: 23 (or whatever)
-1 Wirewood
-1 Nettle
(Just an example)
It makes reading the rest so much less redundant.
There's one thing I hate to do when I look at decklists and it's trying to find out what is removed/switched out/etc.
I found GoboLord's way to be pretty awesome, which is why I suggested it.
EDIT: Not saying I won't build Gbw Elves! though, lol. Just for now, with gas at $1.5/L, its kind of hard picking up the rest of the deck. Also, I'm not new to Legacy, just played it on MTGO (since everything usually wasn't as expensive as IRL, ie: Glimpse is 2tix online whereas its freaking $22/ea..)
EDIT 2: Also, by the "core", I mean like the core things that ALL lists have in common, not my rag-tag team of Archdruid, Priest, and Ezuri. I know they're not the best, but I like them for now, but I will get Catacombs/DRS/Savannahs/Bayous/etc.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
The Core notation sucks. It's super opaque to people trying to pick the deck up, nevermind if "the core" actually changes sometime. Best just to list the key 4ofs or whatnot in a compact manner and leave it at that. Like:
Core
Core
Core
Core
Ezuri
Lolwut
The spacing is enough, I'd think. The changes to the number of Core cards can be left at the bottom or something.
Alright I understand that no one likes the idea but me, lol. :P
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
Looks legit the way you sided.
As someone already noted, the thing we want most is try and get Visionary/Symbiot going against them. Darkblast will remain an Elf hoser, especially with a deck like BUG that has acces to Brainstorm. Wilt-Lief looks like a nice addition. I had it in my side a couple years ago when Belgium was infested with Rock Decks. Hymn? Ok cool here's a 4/4 lord.
Played some long sets vs. UBr Doomsday (Tendrils) yesterday. Seems like a bad matchup. I was overall pretty disappointed by Mindbreak Trap - the slower combo decks like ANT and DDFT can just discard the thing out of your hand with impunity, and then just rip the rest of your bombs out. Slow aggro loses to them going off, Deathrites are too mana-intensive to work. Discard was good, Teeg likewise.
Given that Trap is useless against slower combo, how about Leyline of Sanctity? It kills Belcher and Tendrils to the face just as well, and most importantly shuts down opposing discard. Elves is a very fast deck if undisrupted, and that is what Leyline gives us against slow combo. Against fast combo, it guides/forces them to go for ETW. Deathrites are amazing at grinding out ETWs. Then you can just NO+drain them out or something. Discard obviously helps a bit too. This disregards High Tide, though, and SnT decks. I have zero experience against the latter, how's the matchup and is Trap necessary to make it work, or do discard, Leylines, Karakas and extra fat get the job done?
And he can dodge Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay! I never heard of Wilt-Leaf Liege before but it looks like a nice card vs Engineered PLague without being vulnerable to bolt and decay like other lords.
Played a GP Trial today:) 25 players.
Normal LSV Elves with 4 Cradles, 9 Fetch, 2 Forest. Board is 4 Cabal Therapy, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 NO, 1 Progenitus, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Gaddok Teeg, 1 Qasali Pridemage.
Round 1
WBR Team Italia
Game 1
Held a hand with 3 glimse of nature, used one as a value-glimpse, drew into behemoth and hardcasted it turn 5 swinging for exactly lethal trough Batterskull
-1 Priest, 1, Regal Force, 1 Savannah, 1 Nettle Sentinel, 1 Fyndhorn, 1 Quirrion Ranger
+2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Natural Order, 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Progenitus
Game 2
Turn 2 value glimpse, turn 3 Natural Order. Win.
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2
Maverick
Used a turn 2 Zenith into a Priest to use my second Zenith for Behemoth the turn after. Gaddok Teeg stopped that, and a Sword of Black and Green killed me when I didn't drew into anything good.
-1 Savannah, 1 Regal Force, 1 Quirion Ranger, 1 Nettle Sentinel, 1 Birchlore Rangers, 1 Fyndhorn Elves
+1 Natural Order, 1 Progenitus, 1 Dryad Arbor, 2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Viridian Shaman
Game 2
Killed his turn 2 Teeg with Abrupt Decay, Zenith for Behemoth and attack for like 50.
-1 Natural Order
+1 Regal force
Game 3
Held a hand with Natural Order, Abrupt Decay, 3 lands and 2 other cards. Played the game so that I fetched Bayou and Dryad Arbor at the end of turn 3 to play Quirion Ranger into NO turn 4 for Progenitus (nothing else in play). Good plan if I didn't draw Progenitus in my draw step... Didn't get glimpse going before he had Teeg and Earthsworn Canotist in play.
1-1 (3-3)
Round 3
Scapeshift Explorer
Game 1
Glimpse combo into Behemoth
-1, Regal Force, 1 Savannah, 1 Nettle Sentinel, 1 Fyndhorn, 1 Quirrion Ranger
+2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Natural Order, 1 Progenitus
Game 2
Valueglimpse into next turn NO for the win.
2-1 (5-3)
Round 4
Punishing Jund
Turn 1 Quirrion Ranger, turn 2 Deathrite Shaman, Cradle, Herritage Druid, Natural order for Behemoth, Untap Ranger, Attack for 12. Got him down to 1 next turn with kill on board.
-1, Regal Force, 1 Savannah, 1 Nettle Sentinel, 1 Fyndhorn, 1 Herritage Druid
+2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Natural Order, 1 Progenitus
Turn 1 Llanowar got eaten by a turn 2 Lilliana, my turn 2 was 2x Zenith for Dryad Arbors, next turn drop my hand and play NO For Progenitus. Scoop.
3-1 (8-3)
Round 4
Draw
Ended Swiss on 5th place
Top 8
Scoop to a player thats going to Strassbourg
I feel good about this tournament. Had a goal of getting to top 8 and then eventually scoop to a player going to Strassbourg, and thats what happened:) I feel really good about Elves, the deck is a beast, but feel a little bit insecure about my boarding. So what do you think? Playing another GPT next weekend and hoping for another top 8 with Elves:)
I personally never board out nettle sentinel but will usually shave a heritage druid instead. Priest usually comes out against matchups with removal (i.e. your jund matchup). I wouldn't have taken regal force out when you did as well (only board out against combo). In general, I wouldn't board more than 3 elves out since it dilutes the combo so much (usually priest, 1 heritage druid, 1 quirion ranger). The crop rotations (cradles in your case) usually come out too against blue.
This is the first time I've considered using NO-Prog so I'm curious about when it's boarded in. Is it against any noncombo deck?
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
I'll almost always board in NO-prog against non-combo decks without blue. The only blue deck I would bring in NO-prog against is shardless BUG since they mostly run discard instead of counters for disruption.
I've been toying around with the idea of playing a few Domri Rade's in the board (with a Taiga in the main). This is with the thought that played on turn 2, his +1 ability could be worth it against certain decks like RUG Delver (NO seems horrible with all their cheap countermagic), UW Miracles (or maybe Garruk Relentless as anti-sweaper threat), Stoneblade, and other grindy control decks where drawing almost an extra card a turn would help.
Nettle Sentinel does fight relevant threats like Stoneforge, Deathrite, Delver, Lavamancer, Confidant.
Domri Rade might also be worth testing out in a more Lord-based deck (the above is based on the basic NO/Behemoth build) that better utilizes the Fight ability along with the +1 ability.
Thoughts?
Last edited by Absolutflipz; 03-12-2013 at 04:13 PM.
Maybe I'm missing something or I'm just stupid,but....
The wording of Symbiote and Qurion Ranger says: "return an elf(or a forest) you control to your hand: untap target creature". It is possible to untap opponent creatures with them? and if so, can they be used like a maze of ith to untap the opponent attacking creature ?
Yes you can target the opponents creatures, however this is always a bad idea because it doesn't remove creatures from combat. Maze of Ith does because it says it does. These don't because they don't say they do.
You can still use symbiote and ranger as pseudo mazes by blocking with elves (visionary if possible) or dryad arbor and then bouncing them back to your hand before combat damage. This helps shut down opposing jittes but obviously won't work against flying/unblockable creatures.
After a bit of thought I ended up with this. Seems decent - better than the trap sideboard anyway. Basic idea is to board into a super disruptive beatdown deck. More discard means more consistent access to it, thus a consistent game plan. Furthermore, you can discard key cards out, slowing their actual setup process, something Mindbreak Trap doesn't do at all.
Sideboard for GB NO Elves, Pridemage in the main:
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
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