short version: Imo EtI+Embers > Petals+Grapeshot, so I agree with PhillyP
long version:
advantages of EtI+Embers over Petals+Grapeshot:
+ with EtI you can either kill with direct damage OR with creatures (for example against Leyline...), so you have more and better options, because
+ you can get Emrakul AND Griselbrand, which attack for 22 in Emrakul's extra turn, or
+ you cast Spiraling Embers, which is better against Thalia, Flusterstorm, Canonist and other tax effects, plus
+ you have all your counters, wishes/sideboard wish targets, Jace...
+ you still have the other kill-variant in hand, if the first somehow went wrong,
+ you can have infinite turns, infinite EtIs, cast you deck infinite times..., you could even use Jace's ultimate...,
+ you have more answeres against several hate cards
+ you could even create a storm count with EtI instead of Petals
...
advantages of Petals+Grapeshot over EtI+Embers:
+ you can hardcast the two cards (which is rarely useful)
+ Grapeshot is harder to counter (but with EtI you have all the counters from your deck in hand to response, or Wish-Overmaster first)
+ you could kill creatures and do direct damage (which usually isn't necessary)
maybe I missed something?
about Teeg and Time of Need:
ToN is really better against Teeg, but there are other way to deal with him also.
A: Wish - ToN - S&T same turn: 4URG or in two turns: 2RG, 2U
(then you can S&T Emrakul and play around Teeg, but you need to run a Tropical and find it or save a lotus petal for it)
B: Wish - Pyroclasm - S&T same turn 4URR, or in two turns: 2RR, 2U
(you need another Wish. In two turns: they could possibly get another Teeg)
C: Wish - Eye - S&T: 3UUUR (even worse)
It seems like Teeg would be the only reason to run ToN, so I don't know if it's worth the green anymore. You could also just try to find a creature without Wish. Anyways, you don't have to cut ToN to play with EtI.
... just some thoughts
btw, I really like Stifle instead of black splash for Thoughtseize atm.
You're right, I was unfair in saying that it's never relevant. The way I prefer to play the deck, I don't want to throw away a good kill card if I find Omniscience, and also Miracles usually either doesn't have a clock or you have to Wish for Clasm to kill their Meddling Mage or Clique. I've personally only Wished for Petals once in all the dozens of games I've tested with my roommate (a devoted Miracles player), but it could come up.Originally Posted by Rekk
That being said, I'd prefer to have another grave hate card or some other real sideboard card that I'd use much more frequently. If I weren't cutting the Grapeshot/Embers, I'd definitely play Petals over ETI.
I cut the trop a long time ago because, you're right, wishing for Time of Need happens so rarely.
Regarding the video - LSV was not playing that deck well. I was cringing.
BiuBiu -
yeah, mostly I was talking about using Time of Need to kill them immediately after dropping Omniscience. Letting Maverick untap with Omniscience on the board is usually bad news. The Trop is not worth hurting the mana. I still think you don't need Embers, you can "go infinite" with Eye of Nowhere on their hate and Emrakuls.
Doesn't Stifle just make the deck into like a 4-card combo? I can see how it would be a good answer if it's in hand, but Thoughtseize can deal with countermagic as well as O-rings/bounce/Angel. But I haven't tested it, so just theorizing.
[QUOTE=
Doesn't Stifle just make the deck into like a 4-card combo? I can see how it would be a good answer if it's in hand, but Thoughtseize can deal with countermagic as well as O-rings/bounce/Angel. But I haven't tested it, so just theorizing.[/QUOTE]
thoughtseize basically acts the same way as the stifle but weakens the mana and makes you weak to a top in play. your never really casting thoughtseize before the turn your killing them
With Omniscience in play EtI > ToN
I played with Thoughtseize al lot (!) and it's absolutely fantastic. A lot of advantages over Stifle. Downside is the blacksplash of course. With stifle, I only tested around 20 or 30 games so far, but I enjoy playing the U(r) Version at the moment, fetching basics most of the time, and Stifle does a good Job too. Against the O-rings/bounce/Angel you need it in hand, that's right, but you would also need Thoughtseize right before. With Toughtseize in the deck, I also didn't always wait until I could play it before S&T, especially in game 1. So this difference was less significant than I thought myself before. Dealing with countermagic is another plus of Thoughtseize, knowing opponents hand, plus it's "wishable". It can discard combo pieces, all kind of other threats and disrupt opponents strategy. But Stifle shouldn't be underestimated as well. I Stifled a lot of things, I wouldn't have thought about in the first place...
Btw I'm only testing Stifle instead of Trickbind, because it's one less mana to protect a S&T creature. After Omniscience, Trickbind would be even better of course.
maybe I will go back to Thoughtseize, still testing everything...
How many slots do you dedicate to wishboard? And what do you consider as auto-includes, and what are negotiable?
Here's my personal classification:
Auto-includes, in my opinion:
1x Show and Tell
Negotiable - tier 1
1x Eye of Nowhere (versatility!)
Alternative win condition with Omniscience
1x Petals of Insight
1x Grapeshot (Ensnaring Bridge, etc. - also clears out Teeg with storm = 2)
Negotiable - tier 2
1x Enter the Infinite - I see the optional storm kill as more valuable than saving 1 SB slot, personally
1x Time of Need - situational IMO; could be better served as a hate slot in some metas?
1x Pyroclasm / Infest / Damnation / Supreme Verdict / equivalent - situational vs creature decks (e.g. Goblins) to gain time; if we need to hit only 1 small target, Grapeshot should be sufficient IMO
1x Blatant Thievery to supplement the 1x bounce
Negotiable - tier 3
1x Thoughtseize - why SB rather than MD? Seems redundant as a wishboard target.
1x Overmaster - can take out 1 counter, but does not hit O-ring like Thoughtseize does
Xx Stronghold Gambit - very meta-dependent
Negotiable - tier 4
All others, including some notables:
Armageddon
Austere Command
Bribery
Insist
etc.
Trying to push down my wishboard to 6 cards leave room for other cards. Also, including MD Daze is difficult on the draw unless you have something non-wishboard, non-grave hate to side in to replace them with.
Also, I have not seen much discussion about using 1x Karakas in our own sideboard (4eak's SB list on page 2).
Trying to think about the advantages of including one:
- Legendary rule works in our favor, against the opponent (e.g. KotR fetching Karakas)
- With Omniscience in play, a Karakas can act as
a) StoP protection and vigilance for Griselbrand
b) unlimited extra turns with Emrakul
- Can bounce opposing Emrakul/Griselbrand before resolving ours to avoid Legendary rule
- Can bounce Gaddock Teeg
- Can bounce random creatures, e.g. vs. Reanimator
Downsides:
- Karakas takes 1 extra slot from SB
- Kind of requires using Living Wish rather than Time of Need
- Using Living Wish rather than Time of Need requires us to have at least 1 extra target at SB (supposedly Emrakul, since L.Wish/T.ofNeed requires green mana = we should have O.science already on the table)
-> -2 SB slots (minimum). The question is: Are these SB slots better spent in this way (Karakas + Emrakul) or otherwise (e.g. 2x Flusterstorm, Pyroclasm, Jace)?
I am kind of supposing that the likely "standard" sideboard setup most Omniscience lists have is:
6 Burning Wish board slots
4 Grave hate (or 3 + 1 flex slot)
3 REB / Pyroblast / Defense Grid
2 Flex slot (or extra B.Wish slots or extra REB / Defense grids) -> Karakas + Emrakul could be fit in here?
Played today in 12 person (?) tournament for five rounds magic. Finished 1st by 5-0 record. Played against Belcher, Bug-delver, death&taxes, burn and goblins. Deck performed well, one game lost to manascrew (drawed three lands during game, 1st&2nd land were colorless) i think i could mulligan that but hand was otherwise very good, just needing that one colored source. People weren't enought prepared to face combo, or atleast i didn't face almost any hate during tournament just dedicated for just this deck. Played set of white leylines in sideboard, boarded them in against BUG, belcher and burn so i think they deserved their slots easily, atleast when i did get them in opening hand without mulliganing for them 3/4 of matches.
Do you guys have any new tech for wishboard? Just waiting to get cast Enter the infinite :) I cutted Overmaster, since i never wished for that and shattering spree did get axed too, haven't faced a stax deck or any thorns or similar with this deck since i started to play this deck.
Did anyone think about carstens show&tell with enter the infinite?
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...e-Brewery.html
Monoblue might be more stable, altough I think a black splash for sideboard discard is worth it to fight opposing combo & "non-wasteland control". Also beeing able to win without casting show&tell seems like an advantage - might be also the reason why sneak attack was more successful the omniscience lately.
Currently playing: Elves
Hi, I started play this deck about a week ago. Here is my list. What do you guys think of it?
Spells
4 Griselbrand
4 Omniscience
3 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Lotus Petal
2 Overmaster
2 Personal Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
Sideboard
1 Show and Tell
1 Petals of Insight
1 Grapeshot
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinkbind
1 Overmaster
1 Misdirection
I'm not sure why this thread is rather dead. I've recently started testing Omni-Tell instead of Sneak Show, and am not convinced that the Sneak Attack version is actually better overall, with each version having some advantages over the other.
Anyway, the deck took 10th at SCG Las Vegas (with two Sneak Show in Top Eight and another two in Top Sixteen):
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Lotus Petal
4 Omniscience
4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Burning Wish
1 Personal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Show and Tell
Sideboard
4 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Flusterstorm
2 Misdirection
1 Enter the Infinite
1 Eye of Nowhere
1 Overmaster
1 Show and Tell
I like that version, though I personally don't find Spell Pierce to be all that hot (I'm playing two), I can't see myself playing four unless I know the field is full of discard.
Also, I don't know how necessary the Petals + Sol lands are for this version of the deck. I can totally see them in Sneak Show, as Sneak Attack is rather expensive, but with Burning Wish in its place I find that cutting down on them works as well. While second turn Show and Tell is nice, is it better than having more consistency through additional cantrips and/or additional protection? Especially as against most decks there's not much difference between turn two and turn three Show and Tell.
Finally, I'm torn between Eye of Nowhere and Turbulent Dreams in the side. There are a few situations where bouncing more than one permanent is crucial, mostly when you Show in Griselbrand and need to race at a low life total (Goblins, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh etc).
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
I played that version of the deck at a tournament recently and totally agreed about Spell Pierce. It was often very underwhelming. Most of the time I lacked the mana to play it due to playing Ponder/Preordain turn 1. I think maybe 4 Daze or a 2 Misdirection/2 Daze mix might just be better. I didn't like the mana base a lot either. I don't think 4 Ancient Tombs is the best idea. I like the more traditional 3 Tombs/2 City of Traitors split and I'm gonna try 1 more Volcanic Island instead of the 4th Island.
Regarding his sideboard. It does lack the Petals of Insight/Grapeshot alternate kill which really only comes into play against Ensnaring Bridge and other things that prevent you from attacking. You do have Enter the Infinite which can go get Eye of Nowhere via Burning Wish to still win through an Ensnaring Bridge so the lack of the Petals/Grapeshot might not be that big a deal.
Yea, I don't think Petals/Grapeshot is necessary anymore after Enter the Infinite. Maybe one Time of Need against Gaddock Teeg but then it's only one card right?
I also realized while testing that first turn Mother of Runes + second turn Meddling Mage on Show is game against us if we don't have the Force (and often the Mage alone will be enough since it now requires five mana to go off with Eye of Nowhere + Show, making us suspectible to all kinds of taxing counters). Granted, Mage isn't really played much but it was a bit worrying to lose so easily.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
That's such an incredibly narrow play that I don't think that should be anywhere near the top of the decks worries. I'm more concerned that the decks combo takes too long to set up compared to Sneak and Show. I'm not sure if this decks advantages are worth the speed and resiliency we are sacrificing compared to Sneak and Show.
I played this deck for the first time last week with 80 players joining the tournament. I went 3-3 drop, not a good result but I'd like to share my comments on the deck with my match-ups.
Round 1: MBC (2-0) My opponent played first. On turn 2 he cast Hymn to Tourach, lucky for me I have my single Misdirection and misdirected it to him. On my third turn I won via Petals-Tendrils storm. On our second game, I Burning Wish for Show and Tell on my turn 2. On his 3rd turn he IoK me which I Misdirected to him. On my 3rd turn I won via Omni-Emrakul. Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain really helps with the consistency of this deck. Free counters are also best, my mvp on this match was 1 Misdirection (4 FoW, 1 MisD, 4 Daze, 2 Flusterstorm and 1 in Sb). If i'm going to play this deck again I'll add another MisD.
Round 2: UW Stoneblade (2-0) I played first. On his second turn, he played SFM, 3rd turn played Karakas. On my 4th turn he V Clique me which I FoWed and casted SnT-Omni-Griselbrand, he let me draw 14, played Emrakul and he conceded. Second game, he Spell Pierce my Brainstorm on his 1st turn EoT. On my 3rd turn I played Snt, which he responds with Snap-Pierce and I Daze his Pierce. I drop Omni then BW for Petals-Tendrils win.
Round 3: Dredge (2-0) I played first. I Flusterstorm his 1st turn Faithless looting. On my 2nd turn I won via SnT-Omni-Emrakul. Second game, I Wish for SnT on my 2nd turn, on his third turn he was able to dredge a cabal therapy. He hard cast a Narcomoeba then flashback the Therapy, I responded with my MisD and misdirected it to him. On my 3rd turn I won via SnT-Omni-Petals-Tendrils storm.
Round 4: Punishing Maverick (1-2) He played first. On my 3rd turn I won via SnT-Omni-Emrakul. 2nd game, I mull to 6. I pyroclasm his Teeg and Pridemage but he had another Teeg he played on his turn after. I was holding Omni, Personal Tutor and Burning wish. I was aiming for a Petals-Tendrils win but the Teeg kept me from doing it until I lost when Teeg got equipt with SOFAF eventually. 3rd game, I mulled to 5. I haved SnT-Omni on my 5 cards but with only 1 land (Island). I've drawn my second land (Volcanic Island) but he Wasteland it. I lost while hoping for a Sol Land, but when he show me his hand he was holding a REB and a O-Ring so I'd still lost anyway. In this match I wish I had a Time of Need in my Sideboard I could have won on our second game if I had one. He has no other threat on my combo aside from the Teeg on his board since he has no cards in hand.
Round 5: Jund (1-2) He played first. He played Thoughtseize he took my Brainstorm with Omni and Emrakul in my hand as well. On my turn i top deck SnT. He played Bob turn 2. I won on my turn 2 via SnT-Omni-Emrakul. 2nd game, I was holding the combo already when he Thoughtseize me, I MisD but he REB my MisD. He took my SnT. The game took long he was patiently casting his spells, letting his Tarmo and Bob get Dazed even if he has 3 more mana's that he can use to pay for the Daze. He eventually discarded my hand with Hymn and Duress until he cast his BBE and won eventually. 3rd game, I got mana screwd by his wasteland with the combo already on my hand with protection. On this match, I wish I had Thoughtseize/Discard spells on my Sb it could have help me win this match.
Round 6: 12 Post (1-2) He played first. On my turn 2 I won with Petals-Tendrils storm. 2nd game, on my turn 3 I SnT-Omni but he drop a Spine of Isha. He won later on with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. 3rd game, I did the same thing but he drop Oblivion Stone and activate. I was able to SnT-Omni-Wish later on but he Mindbreak trap after I wish. Lost to Kozilek again. In this match same with Jund, I wish I had Thoughtseize in my Sb. I drop after since I still have to go to work.
I'm going to add 4 Thoughtseize and 1 Time of Need in my Sb next time - for 2nd and 3rd game. 1 Intuition in my maindeck wasn't necessary, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Preordain, 1 Personal Tutor, 4 Burning Wish is enough to find the combo. I'll add 1 Misdirection Maindeck cutting the Intuition.
I think the deck is consistent based on my experience.
I have been working on a black splash list since early October. Feel free to hate, but i have had very consistent luck with it. Heavy testing online as well as winning a few local events in Western NY.
2xLotus Petal
4xBrainstorm
4xDaze
4xForce of Will
1xIntuition
2xLim-Dul's Vault
4xOmniscience
2xEmrakul, the Aeons Torn
2xGriselbrand
1xDeath Wish
1xDuress
2xPersonal Tutor
4xPonder
1xPreordain
4xShow and Tell
4xThoughtseize
2xAncient Tomb
1xBoseiju, Who Shelters ..
3xIsland
4xMisty Rainforest
4xPolluted Delta
1xSwamp
2xUnderground Sea
1xVerdant Catacombs
Sideboard
3xGrafdigger's Cage
1xPithing Needle
2xEchoing Truth
2xFlusterstorm
2xSpell Pierce
1xSurgical Extraction
1xEye of Nowhere
1xUlamog, the Infinite G..
1xEnter the Infinite
1xInquisition of Kozilek
thanks.
For what it's worth, I have played both and seem to do better with Omni. But I don't play it that much differently - for me Omniscience is just another option in addition to Griselbrand and Emrakul, and game one I'm often fine with putting either into play alone if necessary. The extra resiliency comes from getting around problematic stuff like Karakas, Knight of the Reliquary or Gilded Drake as well as beating the permanents Sneak Show, Belcher, 12Post, Reanimator and other such decks put into play. I agree that Sneak Show could be better in an unprepared meta, but I think with the recent successes of Show and Tell that would be hard to find.
There's been some discussion on Stifle, and someone said that it turns the deck into a four-card-combo. While that's a good point, I still find it useful (running three in the side at the moment) and not that uncommon to have Omniscience + Wish/Emrakul/Griselbarnd + Show + Stifle in hand by turn four or so, and it's also nice to draw 14 with Griselbrand in response to a CIP effect and then Stifle it. I bring them in against Miracles (Detention Sphere), Goblins (Stingscourger and lots of other targets) and in general against decks where I have space to bring things in (i.e. decks without much counters or discard, like Maverick). With people boarding stuff like Oblivion Ring and Angel of Despair, they can turn a loss into a win when boarded in correctly while still maintaining a lot of utility against other random stuff. What's your opinion?
For reference, my side is
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Boseiju
3 Stifle
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Show and Tell
1 Turbulent Dreams
1 Enter then Infinite
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Alright, since for some reason, there isn't a lot of discussions that are going on. I guess I'll start one.
What do you guys think of the black splash for Thoughtseize as being part of the core for this deck I think because it gives us the ability to rip off something nice from our opponent either the turn we win or the turn previous before we win. I think Thoughtseize acts not only as an additional counter but as a removal to keep our Omniscience from being Oblivion Ring, Confusion in the ranks, Angel of Despair type tricks people have for our decks. If we're playing against a blue deck, they will either let Thoughtseize resolve or counter it if they want to not show us what they have in their hand to keep the element of surprise on their side to counter our show and tell.
What do you guys think of getting rid of all dazes in the main board for a 2/1 Spell Pierce/Misdirection just like Sneak and Show? I think that Daze is not good enough counterspell to last us in the mid game to late game. I don't think we are too worried about an early turn interaction where our opponent will try to control us, and we have a daze to back out Show and tell up. I think if we wait and get enough lands if we play 20 lands, we're able to show and tell, then cast a spell pierce to be more effective counter on turn 4-5. To cast a daze during that turn would be useless right? Then again, if you go off on turn 2, you may want to have a daze in your hand, but if you have a misdirection and a additional kicker, then the possibility might be nice to the additional to a Force of will and a blue. The hand would have to be like this: show and tell, force, misdirection, spell pierce, brain storm, ancient tomb, land. Let's say you draw into a Burning Wish and a Thoughtseize. This would be ideal situation if possible.
I don't think a black splash is necessary. If you want to fight stuff like that, you can play Vendilion Clique. EoT Clique, clear the way, go off on your turn.
That's a possible suggestion, but it's too mana sinking when i can do the same thing for 1. I have a playset of Thoughtseizes, Underground seas, and Polluted Deltas. Obtaining these cards isn't a problem .
It's not about obtaining cards. It's about turning your 2 color deck into a 3 color deck and increasing your weakness to Wasteland.
Clique also pitches to FoW/Misdirection/Dream Halls as well over Thoughtseize. It's not like the deck normally goes off super quickly anyways so the extra mana cost really isn't a big deal.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote