Keep in mind, on the down side, he also makes Shallow Grave worse. Now a bolt can mess up your intended rez plan when the Researcher is in play.Originally Posted by Azdraël
That's true, but I've found that the upside is worth it. I'm not convinced that you do want to play Study effects, but if you do, I think I'd play Hapless Researcher first.
Something that's come up, Hymn to Tourach can randomly discard your Children of Korlis if you happen to have it in hand, which can mess up Shallow Graves. Just sayin', they're about equally likely.
I've been testing with Teferi's Realm, and I feel pretty comfortable with it. So far played against UW RiP Miracles and Sneak & Show, and it's come in against both. So I only won against Alphastryk when he didn't have Force and I had a turn 1 (2 games out of 6), but at least 2-3 of the other games were won solely on the back of Meddling Mage and Ethersworn Canonist, neither of which I've seen in other builds of Miracles. I feel like Teferi's Realm would be a good answer against an opponent without a disruptive clock (yeah, that Geist of Saint Taft ain't doin' shit). The Realm came in against Sneak & Show too, they just have a bunch of hate permanents and 3 Chain of Vapor wasn't enough to answer them.
The board I'm on right now:
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Teferi's Realm
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Massacre
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Silence
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Hurkyl's Recall
I have 2 Silence in the main and 5 discard spells.
Baum - props to the people testing Lim-Dul's Vault. It seems like a new interesting angle to take the deck (although I'm a little bit sceptical that it's needed)
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Just wanted to share a couple epic escapes from a recent local tourney.
In a G2 vs OmniTell, we both played the waiting game. He was afraid to drop a S&T without the Omniscience and I was afraid to go for it without 2 rez spells, considering I already had a Gris in hand. He eventually S&T'ed an Omni while I dropped my Gris. He followed with an Emrakul. I was at 17 life and held 2 cards - CoK and a Petal. With no way to get CoK in play on his turn, I elected not to draw. He then took his extra turn. He Emrakul'ed me down to 2 and I had to sac all my permanents - except my Gris. On my turn, I managed to get home with a Gris attack, draw 7, sac CoK, draw 7, etc. My 1st time winning through an Emrakul attack!
I also had a fun side game vs a heavy blue Painter home brew. I Thoughtseized him on T1 and he revealed a full play set of FoW! While I spent the next few turns trying to fight thru the counter wall, he managed to get a Painter and 2 Isochron Scepter's into play - 1 w/ Word of Command and another with a Crypt-like effect. He kept making me punch myself each turn and managed to remove all my Griselbrands from the game. Luckily, he was down to 15 life from FoW and fetch damage. And I managed to Emrakul FTW!
I top 8'ed in the Grand Prix Utrecht Legacy Championship (100+ players) with Tinsfins yesterday. My list was pretty much (or exactly?) Jacob Kory's list.
Will look at my notes this week and try to write a small report, but I do know I didn't write a lot down, so have to do a lot from memory. I went 5-1-1 (ID into top 8).
@Baum - I have no issues with translating the primer and posting. :) Just link to this thread along with it, and it's all good. Also, thanks for getting testing in with new card configs - the more of data we get, the faster we can tune.
@phazonmuant - Richard Cheese has been testing Teferi's Realm a lot lately and has been liking it a lot. It seems quite strong, really. Is 2 of enough? Although I suppose the casting cost is a little oppressive. What have your opponents usually chosen in their upkeeps against you?
@dameus - come play more Legacy up north! We're on every weekend dude! Which store are you playing at? TCG?
@Cybey - congrats on the awesome finish!
Find me on Twitter: @beanaman
Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but how does Teferi's Realm help against a Geist?
During your upkeep you choose creatures -> Geist phases out.
In your opponent's next untap, Geist phases in again and can attack you.
I would be very interested in reading your report playing my list. At least it validates the list, rather than just my playing of it. :)
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He says Realm will help against an opponent that does not have a disruptive clock. This is probably because it can't come down until turn three at the earliest. A deck with a disruptive clock will have your health too low before that. A deck with Geist in it, however, is not presenting a disruptive clock, because it also doesn't come down on turn 3 and is pretty late to the party against Tin Fins. It's not that Realm actually helps deal with a Geist, though I can see how one would read it that way. That's my guess anyway.
Ok, it makes sense this way.
I think I'll try the Realm out next weekend. Besides removing multiple hate enchantments or creatures, phasing out lands to shut off countermagic and then go off with mana artifacts just seems nice :)
Also since most of what we're doing is instant-speed, you can just float a bunch of mana, name lands, then proceed to Entomb/Reanimate during your upkeep.
You also have my blessing for translating the primer. It's posted on a public section of an Internet forum, so I consider it public information at this point.
I played the following list at our local weekly yesterday:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Entomb
4 Griselbrand
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Silence
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
SB: 2 Silence
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Show and Tell
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Teferi's Realm
SB: 2 Pull from Eternity
Unfortunately we didn't have many people this week so it was only 3 rounds, the first of which I missed because shit always breaks when I'm on call. The next two went well though. Beat a Junk/Loam Deck 2-1, then Belcher 2-0. Best play of the day was the very first game against Junk/Loam. I mull to 5, but it's a brilliant 5: 2x Fetch, Therapy, Grizzlebees, Goryo's. I'm worried about discard but since I'm on the play I know I beat Deathrite. Therapy myself, bin Grizz, pass, and he drops...Bojuka Bog! Of all the turn 1 plays, I never even considered that. I got him back game 3 by beating him from 6 life with an active Deathrite. Overall I'm very happy with the list as it, although I may swap another U.Sea for a second Scrubland, or possibly a Tundra because of the extra white and blue requirements out of the board.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
What does it do for you to name lands? If you float mana, so can they or am I missing something right now?
Guess it shuts down daze..
On the other hand..it could work against some people.. you tap your lands to float mana, so do they. You go to Main -> Land -> Ritual -> Entomb/Shallow Grave and all they could have to stop it would be force.. Actually I really like it the more I think about it.
Sorry, I was trying to be cute instead of wording my statement clearly. Most Miracles decks have Geist instead of Canonist or Meddling Mage, but I'm in no way afraid of a turn 3 vanilla beater, even if it is a 3 turn clock. Canonist and Meddling Mage typically buy the Miracles player enough time by disrupting my gameplan that they can win off the back of Top, counterspells, and trumps like Counterbalance and Rest in Peace.
I had 3 in the board, and they were just too clunky to bring in all 3, even against Miracles. They are powerful late-game anti-hate, but a lot of the time you're mana constrained, so I preferred to have a mix of Chain of Vapor and Realm. Against Alphastryk's hatebears board I also brought in Massacre.
It was never really relevant what they named. Enchantment was named once because they thought that I wouldn't get a choice on my upkeep, but T-Money's Realm phases in my untap so that didn't work.
I love how confused everyone is by that card. In fact, I love it so much, I just bought 3 German Teferi's Realm!
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
No you didn't miss anything, I just tend to say a bunch of stupid shit when I post from work. Guess I should look for a job where I don't have to be hammered to make it through the day.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I keep on trying to convince myself to play fair decks instead of this at the upcoming SCG Atlanta, and it just isn't working. Getting some good testing in against a variety of gauntlet decks. Results so far:
Sneak & Show: 1-1 Pre (although it felt favored), 2-2 post (about even)
The key to this matchup is Silence postboard to fight through Leyline of Sanctity. Most people are on Grafdigger's Cage, so Chain is an excellent inclusion. To bring in so much hate or anti-hate they have to slow down a lot and I suspect most players will board out Show and Tell, so Therapies should be on Force and Sneak Attack mostly. You're the faster combo, so make them have it.
Esper Stoneblade: 3-1 preboard (very favored), haven't tested sideboard.
vs. Randos on Cockatrice: Inf-0 (this deck might be a bit unfair)
And of course some more random games against UW RiP Miracles: very unfavored. Hate bears suck. If you can go for it turn 1, always do. That's by far the most likely way to win.
Has anyone else had some good results at tournaments or some testing results? Freggle, any luck with thebuild? I'm curious to see how that shakes out. I'm more focused on getting through the entire gauntlet with the
build for SCG ATL, but I'd be interested in testing it perhaps afterwards.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
I did and the MU is very unfavored for us after boarding. Lots of counters (FoW, Pierce, Fluster, Snare), GYhate (Surgical) backed up with discard (TS, IoK) and a fast clock (Geist) is an uphill battle. I never won after boarding. But then again, Europe is always hostile for combo...
Ah, interesting point. Most of the lists I'm using for gauntlet testing are from American tournaments, so if generally European lists are more geared to face combo in general, the matchups will be harder. I try to base lists on results from good players who've done well, but it seems like the only combo that's really had a presence here over the past 3 SCG opens has been Sneak & Show. There's always 1 or 2 Tendrils players in the top 32, but no one really has Flusterstorm, Canonist, or Snare.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Yeah, our meta has always a lot of combo (be it GY-based or not) and people keep playing a lot of combo-hate in the side. The last tournament I went to had the following top 8:
Stoneblade
Belcher
Reanimator
Pox
OmniTell
Sneak & Show x 2
Show & tell homebrew
So you can imaging that after that one, everybody started playing lots of combohate...
I want to share my opinions about some cards after testing for discussion purposes. But before that I want to agree with Darklingske that the European Versions (I don’t know if there are really that big differences between European and American Esper Blade Lists) of Esper Blade feels unfavourable. But I have to point out that my opponent know what I was playing and always kept counter + hate heavy hands. Jace is also an annoyance when they start fatesealing you and with their load of discard and Counter they usually have the time to get to the point where they can play Jace.
Now to the cards I want to discuss.
Cunning Wish: Richard Cheese asked that I update you about my Wish build. I have discarded it. It did what I wanted it to do. Search for a Silver bullet when opposing hate prolonged the game. However for every game that that happened, there was three games where I needed Wish and didn’t had it because I was only playing two to avoid getting Wish flooded. But for this games there was roughly six games where I draw Wish when I didn’t need it because I was digging for my combo peace’s which my Wish build did not get. So increasing the Wish count to have it when needed would only increase the problem of having it when not needed. And after I still want the full Entomb in the main deck to keep the chances of drawing them high the not finding the combo peace’s problem will persist.
Lim-Dûl’s Vault: I have mixed results with LDV. For every game where it found me the cards I need and allow me to win with it there is the a game where I pay 5+ life and are not able to use Griselbrand effectively after it because of my low life total. However if I had paid 5+ Life it means that I would have not find what I need in the next 25+ cards. These are the games where Cantrips without shuffle effects also will not help you. In that case LDV just helps you to realise faster that you should try the next game. And in some of the games where LDV helped I also put 15+ cards away which I would consider the point where Cantrips are not a sure thing to hit because you need a shuffle effect and shuffle in a beneficial way which is also not a guarantee. So far I think 10 Cantrips + 2 LDV build are more consistent than 12 Cantrips + 0 LDV builds. But LDV is definitely not the dream card for this deck and we don’t need to discuss that if Mystical Tutor, Vampirical Tutor or even Imperial Seal would be available we wound not waste a second thinking about LDV.
Silence (I kill you): The more I draw it the more I like this card. A Silence in the opponents upkeep can decide a race who combos first against other fast control decks or helps you to keep your life total against Burn or UR Delver high enough to keep Griselbrands Draw ability relevant. Of course a Silence during you combo turn forces the opponent to use a counter on Silence which could help you to deal with the rest of the hand. If they don’t have the counter even Surgical Extraction or other instant Graveyard hate is not relevant. I really want the full playset of Silence in my 75 and at least two in my Maindeck. I am only searching for the slot.
Children of Korlis: I can’t decide if one or two is the right number. Usually you only want to draw it after you have Griselbrand in play because before it does nothing which is a strong argument for only one CoK. But if you need him to draw more cards you really don’t want to miss him, which is a strong argument for having two. Every time I play two CoK I get CoK flooded, if I play only one I miss him after Griselbrand. Maybe I need to run 1,5 CoK.
Reanimate: I really hate this card in TinFins and I can’t agree that the first Reanimate is more valuable than the fourth Goryo’s Vengeance. Our goal is to get Griselbrand into play and draw as many cards with him to win. If you need Reanimate to get him into play you will draw 14 to 21 cards less than with all the other reanimation spells. 7 because of the lack of haste and 7 to 14 more because you need to pay 8 life to get him into play with Reanimate. And depending on the Game you can go down quickly to 16 or even 15 life. As a trade of Griselbrand gets more vulnerable to removal or bounce compared to the other alternatives that get Griselbrand into play. Yes I know the purpose of Reanimate is after we draw many cards with Griselbrand to reanimate CoK. But after we are already drawing many cards with Griselbrand are we not already winning? I prefer a card that helps me to get to a point where I am winning (like in this case the fourth Goryo’s Vengeance) over a card that when I am already winning helps me to win more (like in this case Reanimate). Sure you can make the claim that Emrakul or Tendrils also don’t help you before you have Griselbrand in play. But these cards are the closer so you will need them. But if you play Emrakul and Tendrils and two CoK and Reanimate these are five cards you don’t want to see before you have Griselbrand in play. But statistically you will have at least one of these cards in every second opening hand. Reducing the number of dead draws should be a goal to make the deck more consistent. Yes I know Reanimate can also reanimate opposing creatures, but this has two issues as well. We can’t influence what our opponent is playing. Good luck reanimating High Tides best creature or compare the impact of the Goblin Lackey that you reanimated with the impact the opposing Goblin Lackey has in his own deck. And even if your opponent play a creature that is worth to get reanimated how do you get it into the Graveyard? The two ways we have are discard and Emrakul Annihilator. If Emrakul is annihilating the creature the chance that you do not longer need to reanimate is quite big. If you can afford to discard the opposing creatures, hate bears not included because I doubt you want to reanimate them, why are you not simple combo the cost seems to be clear? So far I have reanimated zero opposing creatures.
Pithing Needle: I am surprised how many of you are dropping this card from your Deck. I can understand that if you find an alternative to interact with your opponent that you need slots, but some dropping it without an alternative which seems strange to me. Sometimes a Pithing Needle on a card like Goblin Charbelcher just wins.
Massacre: Has anyone really cast this card? The only Deck I saw lately where I considered needing Massacre was Maverick which still sees more play than you would expect in the current Metagame. And even against Maverick because of Gaddock Teeg related issues I doubt that Massacre is the best solution here. And yes I still see Gaddock Teeg in Maverick because of Storm Decks.
Leyline of Sanctity: Maybe it is just because the Decks I faced but I really wondered if this Deck needs Leyline. Against other fast Combo Decks the Games often seem to come down to who wins the dice roll will win. And what will you do against a quick Goblin Charbelcher or Tendrils of Agony without Counters? Well at least both cards target and Leyline can stop that. Leyline can also stop many burn spells from Burn and UR Delver and as a result help you to keep your Life total in areas where Griselbrands draw ability still matters. Obviously there is also the anti-discard application in Match Ups where you need it. The only problem I have with Leyline are to find the slots.
At Kory's request, I've tried to write a very small report of my Legacy Championship Top 8, but had to do most from memory, since I have not written down a lot of notes. First, the decklist:
2 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Silence
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Reanimate
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
2 Silence
2 Massacre
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Pull from Eternity
Round 1: Dredge (2-1)
Game 1: I mulligan to 6, and kept a hand with a Shallow Grave and some cantrips. Not a very fast hand, but definitely not a bad hand. I pretty much lost all dice rolls, so my opponent would start. He plays LED, land, makes red for Faithless looting, sacs LED in response, dredges, keeps dredging and puts about 12 tokens into play and has several Ichords in his graveyard. I draw, but it's not the card needed for the turn 1 kill.
Game 2: He mulligans to 5. I play first, fetch a land and play Thoughtseize on him. I see Ichorid, Narcomeiba, Careful Study, City of Brass and Breakthrough (which I throw away). I have a hand with 2x Dark Rituals, Petal and a Griselbrand. I knew I had a few more turns, since he hasn't hit a dredger yet and hardcast Griselbrand on turn 3. From there I draw 14 cards and go for the Emrakul kill.
Game 3: I destroy his hand with Thoughtseizes and Cabal Therapies. I kept a hand with 2x Surgical Extraction and remove his Breakthroughs and his Golgari Grave-trolls. This gave me sufficient time to build my hand. Looking at my notes, I see I fetch something, draw 7, play surgical, fetch again, sac a Children of Korlis, draw 7, reanimate Children, sac again, draw more and win from there.
Sideboard:
- in: 3x Surgical Extraction
- out: 3x Gitaxian Probe
Round 2: Jund (UBG) (2-1)
Game 1: Lost the dice roll and mulligan to 6. Turn 1 he plays a DRS. I couldn't get around it in time, and eventually get beaten down by a goyf (I think) and the DRS. I never showed him what I played.
Game 2: I play first and cantrip. His turn he plays his DRS again and passes. I play Pithing Needle on DRS. Next turn, I entomb Griselbrand and play Reanimate on him, putting me to 8 life and pass the turn. Next turn I attack and pass the turn, since I had suffient time and he has put a few creatures on the board which might get me for lethal if I would draw 7 and not find anything. Next turn, I draw 7, brainstorm and have sufficient cards to put Emrakul next to Griselbrand and swing for lethal.
Game 3: Think I got a turn 2 kill here. I see I fetched and draw 7 cards. From there the notes stop. He lost 1 life twice, so probably 2x fetch.
Sideboard:
- in: 3x Pithing Needle, 2x Chain of Vapor
- out: 1x Silence, 4x Gitaxian Probe
Round 3: Elves (2-0)
Game 1: I play Thoughtseize on him and see Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionary, Verdant C, Llanowar Elves and Gaea's Cradle and take the Glimpse. He plays DRS. Next turn, I reanimate Griselbrand, putting me to 10 and pass the turn. He makes a couple of elves. Next turn I draw 7 cards and find nothing, attack and pass the turn. He attacks for 2, puting me to 8. Basically I just kept attacking with Griselbrand until he died.
Game 2: We both mulligan to 6. He starts and fetches and plays an elf. I have the turn 1 kill. Put Griselbrand into play, draw 14, play Children of Korlis, draw another 14 cards and put Emrakul into play.
Sideboard:
- in: 3x Pithing Needle, 2x Chain of Vapor
- out: 4x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Cabal Therapy,
Round 4: TES (2-0)
Game 1: He started and played a Gemstone Mine. I already knew what he was playing, since I watched him the round before. I have the turn 1 kill with Griselbrand and Emrakul.
Game 2: I kept a mediocre hand with 2x Silence and a Children of Korlis. I knew that if I would play the Children, he would have a terrible time killing me with Tendrils, since I can just sac the Children before the lethal storm copy resolves. He starts and plays Gitaxian Probe twice, so he knew I had several Silences. I thoughtseize him and see LED, Dark Ritual (2x), Chrome Mox and Polluted Deta. I take one of the Rituals. I fire a few Cabal Therapies at him and we both just did the draw and go for a few turns, until I found my combo and did a tendrils from there.
Sideboard:
- in: 2x Silence, 2x Chain of Vapor
- out: 4x Gitaxian probe
Round 5: Punishing Jund (RUG ?) (1-2)
Game 1: Don't remember much from these games. The deck just didn't want to go off, and had to deal with turn 1 DRS on both games. Especially game 1, he did not know what I was playing, since I barely played anything.
Game 2: We both mulligan to 6, and think I had a decent hand. I put PIthing Needle on DRS, making his 2 DRS simple 1/1 elves. Just wasn't fast enough and goyf got the better of me. I tried to go off, but FoW hit me in the face.
Sideboard:
- in: 3x Pithing Needle
- out: 3x Gitaxian Probe
Round 6: Imperial Painter (2-1)
Game 1: I mulligan to 6, and he starts. He plays City of Traitors and passes the turn. I play a Tundra and cantrip. He plays Magus of the Moon and I'm sitting pretty with my Tundra Mountain and 2 fetchland in my hand. I draw and go a few turns, while he assembles his combo and does the Painter/Grindstone thing. I scoop before he gets a chance to see my library.
Game 2: I start and have the turn 1 kill with Griselbrand and Emrakul.
Game 3: He mulligans and starts, playing 2x Tormod's Crypt and a land. I have a Pithing Needle in hand, but decide to not play it yet. I thoughtseize him and see City of Traitors, 2x Simian Spirit Guide and an Imperial Recruiter. I take the recruiter. He hardcasts a Spirit guide and starts beating my with it. I fire 2 Cabal Therapies at him and destroy his hand. I cantrip into my combo, play the Pithing Needle and put Griselbrand and Emrakul into play.
Sideboard:
- in: 3x Pithing Needle, 2x Chain of Vapor
- out: Silence, 4x Gitaxian Probe
Round 7: I.D.
Top 8:
Round 8: BUG Control (0-2)
Game 1: Basically what happened here is that my deck refused to do anything. I mulligan to 6 and keep a mediocre hand with 3 land (shouldn't have done this). My first few draws all were land and just was too slow. He did not know what I was playing in game 2, since I actually didn't really play anything.
Game 2: Kept a decent hand with some cantrips, but again my draws screw me. At one point I play Brainstorm and draw 3 Lotus Petals...
Luckily top 8 decided before playing to split the prices, so I get away pretty good and got to go home.
The deck seems to run quite smooth and the amount of turn 1 kills are just insane. I do feel the deck does a horrible job against the Jund discard which seems to be everywhere and the counter heavy decks.
From my sideboard, the weakest and never used cards definitely were the Massacre and the Pull from Eternity. Never used either of them and never actually had to. I didn't want to run Show and Tell, because I feel they are simple too slow and just don't work with just 3 creatures. Pithing Needle is absolutely the MVP in the sideboard, since it gets around so much graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt, DRS, Relic of Progenitus, etc.
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This is not smart since u have a emrakul in ure deck that reshuffles ure deck after the grindstone does it's thing...
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