[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

If you can keep Elspeth on the table though, I think indestructibility can be relevant. I just like how Elspeth ONLY ticks up, whereas Sorin has to tick down to get the +1/+0. I liked him when I was playing infinite tokens.deck, but here, I'm going to try Elspeth. I'll also try Sorin and let you know how it goes.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

We were speaking about the Esper matchup. A knight just as easily wrecks Rug's day and comes down on the same turn without you wasting your turn 2 finding Batterskull. Almost any circumstance in which you are clear to drop a creature without the threat of removal, Bob is almost explicitly better in every circumstance.

Burying people in cards is generally the safest way to victory, and if they can't answer Bob, you're winning the game. Batterskull can be stonewalled by a Goyf but Goyf can't beat a Knight.

I would rather not make plays that give my opponents an out, and simply having more shit than they have will more often win you the game than getting a batterskull out early.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where it's the right call, it's just usually not compared to other, better plays you could be making that force the opponent to play your game. For instance, in my list, Tidehollow Sculler hits the field over SFM almost regardless of what they have in hand.

Overall, my biggest beef with SFM is that you give them ample time to figure out the next steps of the game, which is incredibly relevant against Esper probably moreso than other, more linear decks. Esper thrives on information, and when you let them narrate the next several turns, they're usually in a position to be ahead. You want them to be in position where they need to keep trading 1-1 with you until they can't keep up.

Goyf can beat a KotR depending on respective yards.

Having more shit than my opponent is exactly what SFM gives you.

I don't want to trade 1-1 with my opponent, I want value 2-for-1s like Lingering Souls, Liliana of the Veil, and SFM. If I resolve SFM and they kill it, I'm up a card. If they use Force of Wil counter it, I'm up a card. If they do nothing, they die to Batterskull. There's very little drawback of playing SFM when able.

EDIT: BTW, I think Matt, you had tested Chains of Meph. How was it? I'm thinking about getting 1 (for my ETutor board), but don't want to drop $100+ if it's utter trash.

[Kich867]

Goyf can beat a KotR depending on respective yards.

Having more shit than my opponent is exactly what SFM gives you.

I don't want to trade 1-1 with my opponent, I want value 2-for-1s like Lingering Souls, Liliana of the Veil, and SFM. If I resolve SFM and they kill it, I'm up a card. If they use Force of Wil counter it, I'm up a card. If they do nothing, they die to Batterskull. There's very little drawback of playing SFM when able.

EDIT: BTW, I think Matt, you had tested Chains of Meph. How was it? I'm thinking about getting 1 (for my ETutor board), but don't want to drop $100+ if it's utter trash.

So lets go through this thought experiment.
Your hand is: Bayou, Marsh Flats, Wasteland, SFM, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Liliana.
Their hand is: Island, Plains, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, Plow, SFM, Jace.

Your next 3 draws in order: Bob, Abrupt Decay, Lingering Souls
Their next 3 draws in order: Spell Pierce, Snapcaster Mage, Land

You're on the play.

Would you actually play SFM on turn two here? Does that seem remotely reasonable?

These sorts of things aren't terribly accurate, given Brainstorm lets the esper player effectively see 6 cards over 3 draw steps so the amount of shit they can find is unreal, but I do think it's interesting hearing other people's opinions about sequencing and play order for both parties.

[Arsenal]

Given those 10 cards for each of us, I'd play Bob turn 2. My opponent's pretty far away (mana-wise, not card selection wise) from being able to Snapcaster + Plow my Bob, so I'll have gotten decent value out of him if he does bite the dust.

[AggroSteve]

against esper i have been very happy with elspeth, eternally chumpblocking batterskull until you get what you need is awesome, needle is fine in this matchup as well but not awesome

perish obviously sucks for us and i do not like the GSZ for Teeg line of play because of that, .... they just blow my board and land jace afterwards

a im running the knight/GSZ version, and trying strangleroot geist with deed MD

deed has been awesome so far, strangleroot was sometimes good sometimes bad, but most of the time it lead to a irritating situation for my opponent if he used a non-white deck

strangleroot probably will be cut though as i rarely was able to use him to his full potential

could someone give me some advise which cards are best used in SB for the esper matchup

my current SB is the following

3 needle
3 extirpate
1 deed (2 MD)
2 golgari charm
1 abrupt decay (3 MD)
1 darkblast
1 elspeth
2 gaddock teeg
1 cabal therapy (2 MD)

[Arsenal]

Perish does suck. Hard. When running the "classic" creature suite of DRS/Bob/Goyf/KotR, what do you guys do when Reanimator/Esper/etc boards in Perish? Just die?

[Mirrislegend]

What's the consensus on playing Mox Diamond?

Ever since I started running it months ago, I loved it. As the deck evolved, I effectively ran out of space in the deck for all the differet lines of play. The recent SCG finish reminded me that not playing Moxen is an option. Upon re-brewing with that in mind, I managed to fit in all the goodies (except Lili, but I was never smitten with her).

Has anyone else / how many people have cut Diamond and how has that been for you?

[Arsenal]

I used run 3 back in the day, but have dropped them mostly thanks to DRS. DRS mana fixes and accels, although MDiamond allows for stronger turn 1 plays; After turn 1, DRS and MDiamond are even in terms of accel and fixing.

[Claymore]

EDIT: BTW, I think Matt, you had tested Chains of Meph. How was it? I'm thinking about getting 1 (for my ETutor board), but don't want to drop $100+ if it's utter trash.

Very hard to play with if you use Sylvan Library, because Sylvan Library draws 2 extra cards every turn. I'm still at a loss as to how they interact if you actually DO want to keep the extra card and you don't have cards in hand...

Otherwise, it is effective against a lot of decks.

[damionblackgear]

So lets go through this thought experiment.
Your hand is: Bayou, Marsh Flats, Wasteland, SFM, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Liliana.
Their hand is: Island, Plains, Polluted Delta, Brainstorm, Plow, SFM, Jace.

Your next 3 draws in order: Bob, Abrupt Decay, Lingering Souls
Their next 3 draws in order: Spell Pierce, Snapcaster Mage, Land

You're on the play.

Would you actually play SFM on turn two here? Does that seem remotely reasonable?

These sorts of things aren't terribly accurate, given Brainstorm lets the esper player effectively see 6 cards over 3 draw steps so the amount of shit they can find is unreal, but I do think it's interesting hearing other people's opinions about sequencing and play order for both parties.

Interesting rigged question. Not enough information to give a fully developed grasp on the situation but I'll give this a shot because it looks super fun and I like theory crafting.

The correct play would be to play SFM on the play but not on the draw, No Thoughtseize on turn 1 if you know what you're against. Reason:

Known
You 1: Fetchland, pass.
Them 1: Island. They should recognize that there is little to nothing they can't deal with, with that hand. The pierce changes the play from them playing the Plains - Without the pierce, they can't stop a Library anyway. EOT you're fetching Scrub as most esper decks run few-no wastelands and you have a Bayou in hand to complete mana requirements for the rest of your hand.

You 2: You play SFM as bait, which they have a choice of going for brainstorm--> Force or waiting and just using the Swords. They're not only looking forward to the later game but also not wanting to waste resources so the swords is the better option. That means that you get to go for Batterskull and have a false sense of security based on the resolution - If you recognize that you've played a solvable threat, you'll not move with that information until you're ready.
Them 2: They'll play the plains and swords your Mystic. That should provide you the information that they may still have counter magic.

You 3: You have to check for counter magic/extra removal so the TS becomes an option at this point. It's very likely to resolve as their hand has a lot of options and more information will help the brainstorm next turn (most likely, some players may burn the Brainstorm to hide the Jace + ? | Jace will be their draw in this situation as we know they'll have 2 lands). Assuming no BS (pun intended), you'll see:


Polluted Delta
Brainstorm
Stoneforge Mystic
Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Spell Pierce
Snapcaster Mage


Of which Delta is off limits.Brainstorm and Jace are both irrelevant as the Opp has the tools to deal with threats on your side without them. SFM, Snapcaster, and Pierce are all the actual options.

Of the options that matter, equipment isn't a threat on it's own and will require Squire a turn to use (aka, least priority since you have decay and Liliana). Pierce only deals with the Liliana at this point (can wait a bit longer on this one, aka, higher priority). Snapcaster on the other hand allows them to pierce and swords. You're planning at his point to play Bob since you're almost guaranteed to get that card back next turn. So You'll probably take Snapcaster since it allows for insane plays and them to take control at this point.

So, now that you've taken Snapcaster, you play Bob to get your card back and have the intention of playing Goyf next turn. Just to note, this may also show a BS getting played but we can't continue from the BS. Most lists are playing 3 Force main and 1 in the board now so the odds aren't good they they'll find one. The bad news is that the lists are playing 3 more Swords, 1-3 more Snapcaster (Sword in yard), and 3 Force. So, your bob will probably resolve but die next turn. If it dies to Snapcaster, you get to Lili into Sac for sure (and have a souls in hand for the next turn, Souls--> Goyf with another land which dodges Pierce and gets enough to kill jace).

If they don't BS at either point.
Them 3: Because they don't have a way to deal with your Bob, the brainstorm becomes is required. We can't go past this (not enough card draw order dictated). You're in a very good place as you're going to be Bobbing into Lingering souls and drawing what you hope is a land to keep curve. Since there are only 3 swords left there's a good chance they don't find something for this turn (only 3 mana and 1's been used for BS).

If they don't find anything, they'll most likely play the mystic which will allow you to play Liliana and force the sac. They'll have the 4th land for Jace but you've got Bob + Lili on the field and Goyf + Souls in hand. If they bounce bob, you get to discard (souls) with Lili and put 3 bodies onto the field totaling 4 damage (no pump to survive).

If they do, you're in a worse place but you are not out. Souls isn't your best option as they still will have the Pierce active in hand the next turn and it becomes a pseudo time walk when it pierces your souls and lets them play Jace.

If you don't know

You 1: Bayou, Thoughtseize in case you're playing a combo deck or something that you need to pull cards from fast. you'll see the opener:

Island
Plains
Polluted Delta
Brainstorm
Swords to Plowshares
Stoneforge Mystic
Jace, The Mind Sculptor


Of the hand, Swords is the only thing that's stopping you from Mystic into win so, you take it.

Them 1: Draw pierce, Island. Pass.

You 2: Wasteland, Bob. They don't have anything and will have to Brainstorm (and we're cut off again). If that 3rd card is swords or force, they're still in it. Otherwise, you're getting 1 card minimum from Bob. SO, Next turn, you get to swords for Batterskull. When Snapcaster comes down,they've had a choice, they'll do it on their turn in which case you either get to plop Liliana on the table and force a sac --> discard souls the next turn and plop Goyf and/or Batterskull/SoFI forcing them to find another form or removal again or leave Jace in a poor position and you keeping up on card advantage. If they choose to do it on your turn, you get to plop Batterskull (on your turn to avoid potential Cliques) and goyf (I'm assuming we've drawn mana producing land #4) onto the battlefield. That leaves them with Mystic, Batterskull/SoFI, Bob, and Goyf on your side able to cause issues. Bob becomes an awkward choice then. Also, this option leave playing Jace leading to Liliana on your side without fear.

anyone else have opinions on the situation presented

-Edit-

What's the consensus on playing Mox Diamond? Has anyone else / how many people have cut Diamond and how has that been for you?

Most people are against them. I still like them but I've been testing without them again (2 shaman + 1 bird currently). I think it's still fine but I'm starting to think I've been too stuck on them. Trying new things to evolve. We need action which they help produce but they don't create.

Perish does suck. Hard. When running the "classic" creature suite of DRS/Bob/Goyf/KotR, what do you guys do when Reanimator/Esper/etc boards in Perish? Just die?

First, I just want to mention that I changed your quote a little bit (I don't count Reanimator as a deck and haven't since entomb's unbanning. I call it lunch).

Against Esper we have time. The trick is dealing with Jace and Tokens. Everything else can be taken care of. If you can -1/-1 tehir field, only things with pumping equipment can cause an issue. Jace is all that's left. I've been feeling naked without the 3 Pulses (2 doesn't feel like enough) so I may go back up from there which will help deal with him.

[sdematt]

@ Arsenal

Chains of Mephistopheles was good, for sure, but it's not something I'd want to run more than 1-of. It combos poorly with Sylvan is the only issue. It's backbreaking against Brainstorm, but that's not what's getting you, it's Fateseal and Lingering souls protecting their Jace.

Sylvan is an optional trigger, so you don't HAVE to use it on your draw phase. But, if you were, this is how it would work:

1. Draw your card for the turn, Sylvan trigger on the stack.

2. Discard a card from your hand, draw a card from your library.

3. Discard a card from your hand, draw a card from your library.

4. Pay 4 life for each of the cards drawn beyond the first, or put them back.


@ Damion

I'm playing fewer Pulses at the moment just because I don't have room, and because Combo is out in more force where Pulse is worse than discard.

@ Moxen

They're fine for explosive turn 1 plays, but don't come crying when you get 2 land hands that don't go anywhere or draw them in the late game instead of the finisher that is DRS.

@ Esperblade

I was considering playing Loxodon Smiter at some split between main and board, since a 4/4 for 1GW that can't be countered and destroys Liliana is decent, but the main thing is this: Lingering Souls versions are GOOD against Jund, so you don't need more game against Liliana. Second, not having evasion makes you bad against Stoneblade. They're rarely countering your guys with hard counters, but you fear targeted removal ala Swords to Plowshares. I think this is where Thrun or more tokens shine. Thrun doesn't do MUCH, but uncounterable and untargetable gives Jund headaches as well, just like in Modern.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I'm playing fewer Pulses at the moment just because I don't have room, and because Combo is out in more force where Pulse is worse than discard.

True, but I'm thinking I'm going to lower my Swords count as they're usually in the same boat against combo (little-no use).

[Mirrislegend]

I was on moxen + DRS. I'm gonna try dropping the moxes. Here's what I'll be running once I get a chance:

4 DRS
4 Confidant
3 Goyf
3 Stoneforge
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 SDT
4 StP
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 BSKull
1 Jitte
1 SoLaS

4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bog
3x Basic (one of each)
14 fetches and duals

SB:
3 Hymn
3 Thalia
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 O Ring
3 ?

[damionblackgear]

1 SoLaS

Why SoLS > SoFI/SoBM/SoFF? While I don't like SoFF I can justify it more than SoLS in this meta. I'm a huge advocate of SoBM as it allows you to gain an alternate win-con and a blocker for the return attack. SoFI is currently what I'm using though.

[lavafrogg]

Hey guys!

I am back after a brief hiatus of work, Arizona is way to busy in the spring if you work in F and B. I dusted off my last list and swept through my local weekly 4-0. Nothing really big to point out except nothing had really changed since I last picked up this 75. I really want more life from the loam but graveyard hate is way to playable right now.....and most likely for the rest of Magic.

Here is the list if anyone doesn't remember it.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam

3 Lilliana of the Veil

3 Sylvan Library

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
6 Fetches

3 Engineered Explosives
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Lingering Souls
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte

My only question: has anything really changed in the last few months?

@Mox Diamond: it used to be good when we had no turn one plays and our whole deck started at 2, now we have GSZ and DRS and do not need to skip the 1cc slot.

[Arsenal]

Playtested a bunch yesterday in anticipation of SCG Open Milwaukee next month. I played against RUG Delver, RiP Miracles, and PFires Jund primarily (I assume these to make a major showing at the Open). RUG Delver wasn't close most games; we run too much spot removal, threats, and discard for them to deal with. Unless they drop a Mongoose early, they just durdle around, digging for some kind of threat (which will most likely die to Abrupt Decay) while at the same time trying to answer every threat I drop (Liliana of the Veil and Lingering Souls were very, very strong vs. them) while I'm raping their hand with discard. All in all, I feel really good about the RUG Delver matchup.

RiP Miracles wasn't even close either. He won 1 game where he Jaced me to death, but to be fair, I drew exactly 2 threats before he got Jace online (DRS + Lingering Souls) and I couldn't get back from there. Again, I dropped 1 game in about the 6 we played. From what I could tell, RiP Miracles, even with Top/Brainstorm/ETutor, has a difficult time assembling the correct pieces needed to gain advantage/win. Like, he'd have Top in play, but couldn't get CBalance, or he'd have RiP in play, but couldn't find Energy Field/Helm of Awakening. My discard was brutal and I never really cared about any of his permanents other than Jace. Abrupt Decay > that deck if they are durdling around with Top, not interacting with us. Postboard, it was even more grim for him as I'm boarding in 2x Teeg, 2x Duress (that's 7 discard spells postboard), Choke, Pithing Needle, Oblivion Ring. Again, we run too many threats for them to deal with and we have Abrupt Decay to hit their key pieces.

PFire Jund. Damn. I felt good about the regular Jund matchup, but I got smoked pretty bad by PFire Jund. We only had 1 match, it went to 3 games, but holy God PFires Jund is dumb once it gets going. Definitely felt like they are the much better attrition deck. I won game 1 handedly off 2x Wasteland, I got manascrewed game 2, then he went nuts with 2x Hymn, then grinded the hell out of me until I died from DRS in game 3. I think I may run 1-2x Surgical Extraction in the SB to help in this matchup (if that even helps? idk); I've noticed people have cut Lightning Bolt altogether to make room for PFires, so if I can nab PFires with Surgical Extraction, then the only removal spells Jund is left with is LotV and Abrupt Decay.

I was leaning towards running traditional Reanimator, RUG Delver, or Junk at SCG Open Milwaukee and have decided to just run Junk. I think it's a versatile deck versus everything besides fast combo and I enjoy playing with it. Lots of interaction and lines of play that makes things interesting.

[Kich867]

I was leaning towards running traditional Reanimator, RUG Delver, or Junk at SCG Open Milwaukee and have decided to just run Junk. I think it's a versatile deck versus everything besides fast combo and I enjoy playing with it. Lots of interaction and lines of play that makes things interesting.

This is actually really important. Too many people pick a deck that they think is just better than another deck, but the reality of it is that you know when a deck you're playing just sort of feels right. You will play better with a deck you actually enjoy playing, than a deck that is supposed to be better than it.

This is another reason I'm putting Junk down lately. While I totally love the deck, and I also own Reanimator, I'm astronomically better at / more comfortable with Aggro Loam. The Rock is definitely my style of deck, but I never felt as comfortable as I do when playing Aggro Loam. So now I just need to figure out a way to beat combo.

[Claymore]

1. Draw your card for the turn, Sylvan trigger on the stack.

2. Discard a card from your hand, draw a card from your library.

3. Discard a card from your hand, draw a card from your library.

4. Pay 4 life for each of the cards drawn beyond the first, or put them back.

But, what if you start with no cards in hand?

1 - Natural draw (1 card)

2 - Discard the natural draw, draw a card (1 card in hand)

3 - Discard the Sylvan draw, draw a card (1 card in hand)

4 - Pay 8 life to keep one card, or pay 4 and put it back?

Or what happens if one of those Sylvan cards gets discarded so you end up with surplus cards but only 1 Sylvan drawn card? Hopefully I don't derail too much lol

[Arsenal]

In Game 1, what do you guys versus an active Mother of Runes? She's incredibly difficult to deal with once she's active and makes Maverick's creatures > your creatures for the most part. I feel pretty good about Maverick until they get a Mother of Runes online, then I just don't know what to do. Game 2, I have more answers from the board, but I certainly don't like losing Game 1 to a grindy deck like Maverick. Other than getting lucky with StP on a sick Mother of Runes, is there any "tricks" you guys are aware of that can efficiently deal with her?

[Kich867]

In Game 1, what do you guys versus an active Mother of Runes? She's incredibly difficult to deal with once she's active and makes Maverick's creatures > your creatures for the most part. I feel pretty good about Maverick until they get a Mother of Runes online, then I just don't know what to do. Game 2, I have more answers from the board, but I certainly don't like losing Game 1 to a grindy deck like Maverick. Other than getting lucky with StP on a sick Mother of Runes, is there any "tricks" you guys are aware of that can efficiently deal with her?

If they aren't bad there's almost no reliable way to beat an active Mother. You have to 2-for-1 yourself. If there are two out, I usually scoop, at that point they just drop a Mirran Crusader or a Knight and there's no way to race them.