I lost an enormous number of games to Sneak/Show, OmniShow, and High Tide before I realized that Split Second is actively critical. The free factor of Surgical is wonderful, and definitely relevant in some matchups (Dredge, Breakfast, Spy, and a few others come to mind), but at the end of the day, for what role I want the card to fulfill, I'll take Extirpate over Surgical in most metas.
Note that I agree that blindly choosing Extirpate over Surgical is patently wrong. Everyone should always rebuild their sideboard before every event, and critically evaluate every option to make sure that it's where you want to be. I'm not a fan of jamming Extirpate for Extirpate's sake, in the same way that I'm (still) not a fan of Brainstorm "because Brainstorm." It's not an argument in-itself.
-----------
I'll be jamming at least one or two Win-a-boxes with Rector this weekend (and I think Steve is probably going to borrow it for a couple while I'm 12posting). To that end, I updated the board for the expected meta, which is to say a ton of combo and Esperblade.
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Batterskull
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Humility
1 Nether Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
Pretty close to what I've been running, with just a few minor tweaks. I'm exceptionally happy with the control mirror package. The planeswalkers help out enormously with the actual winning-in-time problem, and they're huge trumps for the midrange matchup, too. There are few things Jund is as angry to see across from them as Elspeth. Somewhere along the way I realized that there are two essential classifications of planeswalker:
Value
Combat
Value walkers include Jace, Liliana, and most commonly played options (Domri would also count here). They usually draw cards, filter cards, or discard cards; and they frequently have a creature-removal option on them as well.
Combat walkers are your Elspeth K-E, Sorin LoA, Garruk Primal Hunter, and so on. They usually involve making tokens and enhancing creatures.
It just so happens that one of the best ways to combat a value-planeswalker is with a combat-planeswalker. Jace loses to Elspeth and Sorin. So does Liliana. The value-walkers can't keep up with the combat-walkers on their own. Esperblade needs to keep Elspeth down via a combination of Jace and cards from their deck (Swords, Snapcasters, Clique beats, etc). By contrast, we don't need to use our resources to protect Elspeth and Sorin -- we can be aggressively building board state while our opponents are focused on them. This is huge for us.
Batterskull overperformed the last time I ran the deck, so it's back for another go.
ETs help fetch whatever we need fetched vs combo matchups, but I also like to board in 1 copy vs control decks as a aid in finding Batterskull late or Top early. ET for Deed helps vs aggro.
Crypt and Chalice are the standard early-game ET bullets for graveyard combo and Chrome Mox / LED combo, respectively. Chalice on 1 is a beating vs Elves, if you're not in the position to ET for Deed instead.
Nether Void and Humility are the standard stone-cold-killers in the matchups where they're relevant.
Leyline and Mindbreak are the standard 5-cards of t0 protection. Leyline is also strong vs Jund decks that want to Hymn you into the ground.
So yeah. We'll see how my win-a-boxes go =)
No, bad cards make people make bad decks that are way less good at doing something that a better deck already does better.Originally Posted by bruizar
That was definitely a set of the worst examples one could give to justify using Devastation Tide over Pernicious Deed. Because if you use Deed, you don't have to use any of those amazingly shitty cards. Windfall being the exception, and even then, kinda less than stellar and similar effects exist.
I really like this Punishing Fire variant of Nic Fit. I am currently doing some research and build a version of this variant. I am thinking of including both DRS and Ooze as a one-off. I would like to run only one huntmaster and I really like Garruk Relentless. Also I don't like Broodmate Dragon to much. Viridia made a solid suggestion for a replacement: Rampaging Baloths. turning lategame veterans and fetchlands into 4/4 tokens. Also I am thinking about including Borborygmos Enraged (maybe with the support of Rec Nightmare) and one life from the loam. The 8 CMC is huge, but when he hits the table and you start dredging with Top's you can shoot down the opponent pretty fast. This is just theorycrafting. Also the interaction with loam and baloth to create a huge army of tokens.
Hey guys, all your crazy "research" and "realizations" aside, the Jund list really should be credited to HoneyT.
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
The Punishing Fire version is jointed accredited to HoneyT and Tao in my mind -- they both refined it at about the same time. I don't think anyone here was challenging that -- just because HoneyT and Tao refined PFire to the point of playability doesn't mean that other people can't learn about it and pick it up later, making their own tweaks to it.
The Punishing Fire version was, if I recall correctly, initially made by Rabrab and me more than one year ago. I got a PM from Rabrab with a list, tweaked it a bit to my personal taste and had time for a ML trial:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=55208
I'm sorry if what i said seemed like i was saying the punishing fire Nic Fit is my doing. I would never do so, and saying something like that was never my intention. If it sounded like that, i honestly apologize. In fact, most of what i saw about this version and about the Nic Fit in general was within this tread, and my intention was only to get help from the people that originally thought of this deck to build up my deck in a way that can put up the best game possible.
Has anyone thought of using Imperial RecruiterAnd the changing up your fatty suite to make him awesome? For example as a 7 drop you can run Hornet Queen!
I don't see the point of that in the face of Fierce Empath who is both green and cheaper and serves the same purpose.
Fair point. Empath puts on top of library though (it might be relevant). But for the most part you have a point lol
It goes directly into your hand.
I actually just played Punishing fire tonight for the first time and enjoyed it. It was just at the causal 5$ legacy FNM with like 16 people. Usually theres 30+ people at this weekly event, and its alot of the jupiter/mythic crowd, but I think Cornell must be on break or something because alot of the usual competitive people weren't there. I got 3rd, only losing to TES with this list:
23 Lands:
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Bayou
1x Badlands
2x Taiga
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura Tribe Elder
1x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
1x Wolfir Silverheart
1x Primeval Titan
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtsize
2x Slaughter Games
3x Carpet of Flowers
Xx Meta dependent cards I wouldnt run elsewhere
I was happy with the list, Id change the SB around alot for a different event, but the MD I liked a lot. Garruk, thrun, Silverheart, and Wolf Run were awesome, some combo of those cards won most of my games. It nice being able to play stuff like 4 PFires, 3-4 Decays, 1-2 Pulses, with REBs and more discard in the SB (in contrast with scapeshifts tight list).
nice to see some punishing fire discussion going. I haven't played legacy since forever feels like, there has barley been any legacy tournaments around here and seems like lots of people quit playing too, or having a break..
Anyways I've mostly been running the rector version w/ moat etc but tomorrow we actually have a tournament which im gonna attend to. Will be playing punishing fire, despite the fact half of the people in the room will be on combo decks of sorts. All my cards in the sideboard are for combo decks so
CREATURES (13)
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Pernicious Deed
SORCERIES (9)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
INSTANTS (6)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
PLANESWALKERS (2)
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Garruk Relentless
ARTIFACTS (3)
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (23)
1 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
SIDEBOARD
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
3 Slaughter Games
4 Duress
I'm still not sold on the Broodmate Dragon. To be fair I just haven't tested him enough to make an honest decision
Might do a report on sunday evening or monday
Bobmans has suggested Rampaging Baloths as a replacement, which i think is a great idea. But although i think it would be very good, i fear losing the only flying body on the deck. Is it just me? Also, i want to be convinced on Prime Titan on this deck. I love the card, and i know there is Grove of Burnwillows and Kessig to fetch, but i can't stop thinking that I don't find it half as good as fetching two Creeping Tar Pits (as in the deadeye build you guys developed). Am I wrong on this?
Hah, exactly that.
I think PrimeTime should stay in the 60. it also makes cards like Bojuka Bog optional. Anyway, Aside from just being 2x 4/4 flying does Broodmate Dragon serves a role specifically performed by this creature, or is it just because you would want to have an extra out? Or is it to be able to block opponents flyers? There are alternatives, but if I would want to replace Broodmate permanently, I would want to fill the possible gap when its missing.
Being able to create an army of 4/4 tokens mostly mean that the opponent having flyers becomes irrelevant. Unless he can outrace you when you're low on life.
You want to play ~two 6-drops anyway just for curve reasons. And both are good ones because they have a high power level and they can't be killed one for one by the opponent. The thought behind the split of 1 Primeval Titan, 1 Broodmate Dragon is to have one big GSZ target for the long game and one for an immediate impact.
If you play against a Jace control deck a Broodmate Dragon probably won't cut it. They will Swords it, then Snapcaster Swords it. Or Swords the original, then use Jace to bounce the Token. Primeval Titan hits Jace from a different angle and it doesn't matter if they kill it (they will). If you get two Groves it will put you ahead on mana and they will have a much harder time defending their Jace.
Broodmate is better against decks that put you under pressure. If you are up against 2 Delvers or a 6/7 Goyf or a Tombstalker or a bunch of Goblins then Primeval won't give you the immediate impact that you need but Broodmate can immediately stabilize the board. Broodmate truly shines in these situations, I'd love to have such a GSZ target for my BUG list.
On the topic of 6drops that Jund nic fit should be running, apparently this is going to be the Gruul Champion in dragons maze (stole from MTGS, who got it from Pax east):
Card Image here"Ruric-That, the Unborn 4GR, mythic, Legendary Creature - 6/6 vigilance reach. Must attack. Whenever anyone plays a noncreature, they take 6."
Perhaps Hornet Queen provides a nice solution to the given situations. Only thing is that it only has a total of 6 power compared to 8 from broodmate dragon. It can chump block anything on the board and it can even help to minimize the devestation an Emrakul puts us in, saccing 4 tokens, blocking with the hornet and saccing some lands or whatever.
edit: kessig wolf run makes a nice combo with the deathtouch ability. It would only require to do 1 damage to any blocking creature and the rest to the opponent.
I've been playing Punishing Nic-fit for while and this is my current list:
Lands (23)
2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
Creatures (14)
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
2x Grave Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon
Spells (23)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
3x Punishing Fire
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Duress
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Slaughter Games
3x Angel of Despair / Mindbreak Trap (meta-dependant)
Yesterday I placed 3 out of 14 people at our local shop with this list (using Angel of Despair in the sb) and was quite happy with the deck. I've beaten Dragon Stompy (2-0), Affinity (2-0) and Burn (2-0) and lost to UW Miracles (0-1). All the matches were fairly easy to beat, almost having no problems at all. The meta was: Sneak Show, UW Miracles (RiP/ Helm), Esper Stoneblade, Burn, Zombardment, Elves, Affinity, Dragon Stompy, Merfolk, Goblins
Dragon Stompy can do little to screw us, since our curve is higuer than the usual CoTV at 1 or 2 and we dont care about Thrinisphere at all (as long we dont get mana screwed). A T0 Magus or Blood Moon can be dangerous if all we got is fetches, but thats it: once we have a swamp and a forest out, its very hard to lose.
Affinity was an easy match, just blowed Pernicious Deed to wipe the opponent's board and that was it.
Burn was a little harder, since there was a good amount of pressure, but Huntmaster and Thragtusk saved the day.
The most difficult match was UW Miracles (RiP / Helm of Obedience version). G1 lasted 40 minutes, and I lost to Helm mulling my library after I had a Grave Titan going for lethal damage on the following turn. In G2, time was called, so it ended 0-1. After the tournament was finished, I played against another player with a similar Miracles list and lost 1-2 (The game I won was on the back of a lone uncounterable Thrun beatdown).
This matchup has been very annoying for me. My current sideboard for it is: -1 Scavening Ooze, -1 Eternal Witness, -3 Punishing Fire, +2 Slaughter Games, +3 Red Elemental Blast. My main target for Slaughter Games has been RiP most of the time, and I got 3x ReB's and 2x Pulse to deal with Jace. My plan is to win via Thrun beats and use Discard, Deed, Decay and Pulse to avoid Jace, RiP and Entreat the Angels.
Do you guys have any other tips for this matchup? Also, I was thinking of 3x Carpet of Flowers in the 3x Angel of Despair / Mindbreak Trap, but idk if its worth it, since it gets blown out with Deed and we already have a difficult combo matchup... Any thoughts?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
