[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[phazonmutant]

Walker raised this point a little while ago - why are we still playing 2 Griselbrand if we're purely looking for the Entomb at this point and also not playing Intuition? I think I'd feel uncomfortable going into a field with Deathrite Shamans with only 1 Griselbrand, but not too long ago I was uncomfortable playing 1 Children of Korlis, so it's definitely something worth considering.

[TraxDaMax]

Walker raised this point a little while ago - why are we still playing 2 Griselbrand if we're purely looking for the Entomb at this point and also not playing Intuition? I think I'd feel uncomfortable going into a field with Deathrite Shamans with only 1 Griselbrand, but not too long ago I was uncomfortable playing 1 Children of Korlis, so it's definitely something worth considering.

I must say though that usually LDV is a Vampiric Tutor thats costs 1u more. It has been pretty decent to me.

[Koby]

Theoretically I can agree you only need 1 Griselbrand. Are we at a lack of maindeck space that it needs to be trimmed? Having more increases the odds of being able to point discard at our own hands to enabler Griselbrand reanimation.

[.dk]

Walker raised this point a little while ago - why are we still playing 2 Griselbrand if we're purely looking for the Entomb at this point and also not playing Intuition? I think I'd feel uncomfortable going into a field with Deathrite Shamans with only 1 Griselbrand, but not too long ago I was uncomfortable playing 1 Children of Korlis, so it's definitely something worth considering.

There is also the case of fizzling after reanimating Griselbrand as well. I know that is usually quite uncommon at this point, but if you're doing it from a low life total, it's definitely possible. If you can't flashback a Therapy with Griselbrand, then you're kind of shit out of luck if Emrakul doesn't work for some reason (like if you had to reanimate during their turn to block and not die or something).

[phazonmutant]

Theoretically I can agree you only need 1 Griselbrand. Are we at a lack of maindeck space that it needs to be trimmed? Having more increases the odds of being able to point discard at our own hands to enabler Griselbrand reanimation.

The deck has felt much more resilient once we found room for 7-8 disruption spells. You're right that there's probably diminishing returns past that point though.

There is also the case of fizzling after reanimating Griselbrand as well. I know that is usually quite uncommon at this point, but if you're doing it from a low life total, it's definitely possible.

That's a strong argument for the 2nd. A more common scenario that's come up for me is if they Plow Griselbrand you want to be able to find another if you haven't found Tendrils.


Zubba - thanks for the first report! Good to see people doing well. I'm curious that you decided to cut a Ponder - do you think LDV takes its place? Was Teferi's Realm ever better than Serenity for you? That's been the sticking point for me.

Baum - That list looks strong. Good luck!

[.dk]

That's a strong argument for the 2nd. A more common scenario that's come up for me is if they Plow Griselbrand you want to be able to find another if you haven't found Tendrils.

Ah, yeah that's a very common one against Esper and such. I think all of these combined make a sufficient argument for having 2 maindeck.

[Baum]

Good luck at the GP! Have you tested with the Intuition much? I went back on it (ended up too slow for me, just like the first time... weird. Definition of insanity?) and am back on 2xLDV maindeck at the moment. They help find sideboard material as well.

I'm still testing the Intuition. I think it's a close call between Intuition and LDV. Intuition into 3 Griselbrand or 2 Grisel and 1 Child costs as much mana as LDV into Entomb, but LDV/Entomb can be splitted over 2 turns with only 2 mana sources. On the other Hand, LDV's lifeloss *can* cost you 7 cards sometimes.
Finding sideboard pieces is a valid argument for LDV as well.
Tomorrow we'll do a final testing session. Maybe I hate Intuition afterwards... We will se ;)

BTW: Has anyone tested Grim Tutor? Might be an alternative as well.

[Ardass]

Hello ! Played TinFins to a 4-1 finish last sunday at a Bazar of Moxen trial, finished 3rd, but only the first two won byes...
Here is the list I played :

2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Reanimate

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Silence

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Marsh flats
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Tundra

Sideboard:

2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
2 Serenity
1 Duress
2 Silence
2 Massacre
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle


The tournament went the following way :
Round 1 : MUD/Tezzerator : 1-2
Game one I comboed on the second turn after him playing a Tezzeret. Sadly, he had the FoW :/
Game two : Chalice on 1 turn one, I made him discard his threats but had to wait a bit before finding an echoing truth and then kill him on turn 5
Game three : Same thing but could not find either Serenity or Truth in time :/

Round 2 : Nic Fit : 2-0
Complete blow out... ;)

Round 3 : RUG Tempo ***** : 2-1
Game one : Discard his FoW, then played around pierce to kill him
Game two : Went for it after making him discard all of his counters. He had of course drawn a Spell Snare...
Game three : Silence is just that good ;)

Round 4 : BUG Tempo (delver) - 2-1
Game one : turned two him with discard on turn one
Game two : Huge discard/counter battle, went for it the following turn, but he had the Extraction
Game three : Discard battle which let me with only mana sources and a Griselbrand in hand. Luckily, I started drawing more mana sources, cabal him to remove FoW and then hardcast Grisel daze proof ;)

Round 5 : High Tide : 2-0
Well, silence !!


Overall I was quite happy with the deck. I need to do some testing with only one children main deck, because on paper I do not like that choice. But I need a slot to play either Intuition, Buried alive or Lim Dul's Vault (my preference goes to LDVault). I also would love a seventh discard spell.

About the sideboard, I liked the Duress and the Silence. I am going to try the green splash this sunday, something like that :

1 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Serenity
2 Reverent Silence
2 Silence
1 Massacre
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bayou

Against what decks do you side in Needle ? Looks like I will always want a mix of CoV/Decay/R. Silence / Silence/Serenity more than the needle.

All in all, the deck is a blast to play. Griselbrand is my favourite recent card and I usually play ANT in Legacy, so that was an easy switch ;) If I am happy with the results I'll get this sunday and from testing, I will play TinFins at GP Strasbourg.

[Chikenbok]

I'm on 2 LDV aswell and curious how others have been doing with Intuition.

I'm back on 2 LDV 1 Intuition and sometimes its really just what you need to win the game, on the spot, when you know that you have to go off. Its been amazing at finding what you need at the right time, I don't think I'll play the deck again without it in the next several tournaments. It also makes SB a bit easier because if you expect extractions (which you probably should) its an easy cut.

[TraxDaMax]

Played a game against my own Delverstill deck which I was working on before messing around with Grizza.
My buddy was piloting it, and I gotta say that is almost unbeatable. He didn't even side even though he could.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...fleStill/page2

thats the link to my Delverstill deck I was up against except it had -2fetch, -1 Mishra's Factory, +2 Spellstutter Sprite, +1 Mutavault.

I just got majorly slaughtered, against Spell Snares, Wastelands, Spell Pierces, FoW's, a bunch of faeries and Stifle's.
If anybody feels like it, sleeve that deck up. I'm trying to find myself a way to win against it.

[Koby]

Played a game against my own Delverstill deck which I was working on before messing around with Grizza.
My buddy was piloting it, and I gotta say that is almost unbeatable. He didn't even side even though he could.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...fleStill/page2

thats the link to my Delverstill deck I was up against except it had -2fetch, -1 Mishra's Factory, +2 Spellstutter Sprite, +1 Mutavault.

I just got majorly slaughtered, against Spell Snares, Wastelands, Spell Pierces, FoW's, a bunch of faeries and Stifle's.
If anybody feels like it, sleeve that deck up. I'm trying to find myself a way to win against it.

I'm not surprised this matchup is miserable for Tin Fins. It's designed to beat combo decks with cheap counters and fast threats.

[TraxDaMax]

I'm not surprised this matchup is miserable for Tin Fins. It's designed to beat combo decks with cheap counters and fast threats.

I went 1-2 in the GPT Strasbourg against a BUG Tempo deck aswell. Game 3, he had a turn 1 Deathrire Shaman, which I Pithing Needle'd. And when I finally got to see his hand(after a mull to 5), it contained double Force of Will, double Spell Pierce AND double Surgical Extraction... Goes without saying I lost that game.

So I've watched the stream of Caleb playing against RUG Delver, which has a lot of elements the list I tested against has, but Caleb seems to waltz right over RUG.
I guess the match-up is hoping we get a nutty hand? I actually would have had a way better chance if I had Reanimate.
Which has me thinking, is that sometimes just good enough? If so maybe Reanimate deserves an extra slot main or side to be a little less dead vs Spell Snare? I am just trying to do some next leveling against the next level thinkers coming with a plan to the GP. If I were to take a different deck, I'd definately pack Spell Snares in this meta.

[Koby]

Each situation is different. I can't say for certain how to play against Tempo lists, because it depends on what you have access to, what they have access to, and how your deck is constructed. <not enough info>

[Wilkin]

I'm not surprised this matchup is miserable for Tin Fins. It's designed to beat combo decks with cheap counters and fast threats.

Yeah it's a very tough match-up. I've played against it once...beat it 2-0. Where I play, I'm deadguy 99% of the time so my opponent (Lam Phan, one of the creators of Canadian Threshold) is putting me on it and not a combo deck......I reanimate Griselbrand turn 2 and his only response was Brainstorm....

Game 2 he stifles 3 lands in a row but I was able to cast Show and Tell with the help of Boseiju.

Unfortunately I go 2-3 in the tournament. Beat Hive Mind and UR landstill and lost to BANT and 2 Canadian Threshold decks.

[TraxDaMax]

Yeah it's a very tough match-up. I've played against it once...beat it 2-0. Where I play, I'm deadguy 99% of the time so my opponent (Lam Phan, one of the creators of Canadian Threshold) is putting me on it and not a combo deck......I reanimate Griselbrand turn 2 and his only response was Brainstorm....

Game 2 he stifles 3 lands in a row but I was able to cast Show and Tell with the help of Boseiju.

Unfortunately I go 2-3 in the tournament. Beat Hive Mind and UR landstill and lost to BANT and 2 Canadian Threshold decks.

Hmm... Boseiju... Why didn't I think of that, that might actually just be a lot better. Ok, still doesn't help that Wasteland is a card, but if they don't have it or waste it on an Underground Sea, we can combo out anyways.
I have one week to test this, but thanks a bunch for this tech! I'm pretty psyched about trying it.

[kirkusjones]

Just won a small tournament with the deck. My favorite match was against a Sneak and Show player who thought I was playing regular reanimator. His face when I comboed out with tendrils was priceless.

[Koby]

I love that feeling you get when you GProbe your opponent and they kept nothing relevant. Casual Dark Ritual-Entomb-Reanimate on them.

[TraxDaMax]

I'm still testing the Intuition. I think it's a close call between Intuition and LDV. Intuition into 3 Griselbrand or 2 Grisel and 1 Child costs as much mana as LDV into Entomb, but LDV/Entomb can be splitted over 2 turns with only 2 mana sources. On the other Hand, LDV's lifeloss *can* cost you 7 cards sometimes.
Finding sideboard pieces is a valid argument for LDV as well.
Tomorrow we'll do a final testing session. Maybe I hate Intuition afterwards... We will se ;)

BTW: Has anyone tested Grim Tutor? Might be an alternative as well.

The Split over two turns, is what often makes the difference in my experience. The only times I wish I drew Intuition, is when I'm flooding. Which I guess, at that point we can only hope we get enough lands into play that we can:
a) Tendrils our unexpecting opponent
b) Hardcast Griselbrand with Petals and Rituals.


I've been trying to pay attention to this, but haven't tested it in practise yet. Time is lacking, and at the moment I'm trying to fix other problems.

[T-Ralph]

I've been playing 2 different list this one is with a green splash.



Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
2 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea

// Creatures
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Children of Korlis

// Spells
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Entomb
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Silence
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
2 Serenity
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bayou
2 Reverent Silence

I really like this board but i really want to add a second massacre i've noticed throughout testing is that thalia is very annoying and it makes it just about impossible to combo off.



and here is a more traditional list
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
2 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea

// Creatures
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Children of Korlis

// Spells
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Entomb
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Silence
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Serenity
2 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth

I've been doing very well with this list i feel like the second massacre makes the match up against Thalia decks a little smoother the only real change I want to try is -2 PfE from the sideboard and + 2 teferi's realm and maybe -1 Echoing truth +1 chain of vapor.

[Karhumies]

1 Intuition ... makes SB a bit easier because if you expect extractions (which you probably should) its an easy cut.

"Being easy to sideboard out" is a terrible argument why to MD any card.
Better reasons would be cmc 3 -> goes around Spell Snare and less likely to be caught into a resolved Counterbalance. But even these are poor arguments as long as we are not running Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, because having to spend 3 mana in one go is just plain slower than 2 mana.


LDV > Intuition post-SB.

LDV is 1 mana less, which is often 1 turn faster to find a response to a hate card.
With Intuition, you need to SB in at least 3 of the same anti-hate card to find it. Not to mention putting the other copies into GY (potentially into exile vs a hate card), which is especially bad if the single copy you got to keep is not enough to win.

Life is a static resource. However, if you are worried about LDV life loss, one (risky?) way is to cut 1-2 fetches when you include LDV into your list. Less life loss, and less often need to shuffle immediately after setting up a LDV pile of 2-3 good cards on top of your library. This of course will make Brainstorming worse, but then again you are less likely to need Brainstorm if you have a Tutor in the first place. So it's essentially a trade-off.