Good questions being asked, much more productive than endless "what do you think of my build?" posts.
Against an unknown, I would play Top instead of holding up Brainstorm.
Against an unknown, I would hold up Pierce instead of playing Top.
In the mirror, I would never Force a turn one Top, and almost never use a Force to resolve my own first turn Top.
Joe, could you explain your decisions for the mirror match?
I think a lot of this is down to personal play style. A lot of times, I won't Force my opponent's top, but I almost always regret it several turns later. Watching my opponent spin Top in the mirror while I'm just top-decking makes me feel like I'm falling farther behind every turn. That said, I've won games where my opponent went T1 Top, T2 Counterbalance, but couldn't counter my T4 Jace. So I agree with Brian that what you're pitching also weighs on the decision.Originally Posted by oarsman
I also almost never use Force to protect my own turn 1 Top, but I'm a very defensive player (something I caught some flack for on Twitter). I like to only Force the card that will cost me the game and don't often use them offensively.
By the way, I think it's very promising to see the thread turning to hypotheticals of how to play the deck, and not nitpicking lists.
cshacal, I've come up with an explanation, but this is definitely a case of finding a rationale to support a conclusion that I already held, so it should be considered suspect.
In the mirror, suppose we each draw up an opening hand with a dead card.
You have a Top and I do not, thus you can avoid drawing more dead cards.
On turn four we each cast a Brainstorm.
I will likely have another dead card by now, but you do not.
We can both put two cards back and presumably shuffle.
Both of us now have zero dead cards in hand.
I then play a Top.
How much of an advantage has your Top given you at this point?
I cannot deny that Top will improve the quality of cards you can draw over the course of a game, and the ability to play miracles at will is obviously valuable. However, I question whether its impact on a developing game (in the mirror) is worth pitching a card to a Force.
Many factors can influence the value of an early Top. Counterbalance makes it worth much more. A 2nd Top makes it worth much less. We don't get to know about those things on the first turn though. When it comes to using Force of Will, I am only using it on a card that scares me. And Top does not do that.
If I have only 2 lands in hand and the opponent Fow's my first turn top y will Fow back just to ensure I will be able to drop my first 4 lands fast. With three lands in hand I will not. Having a brainstorm in hand changes this and of course the card that you pitch to Fow, if you start with top+counterbalance... Every opening hand has it's own considerations to think about.
If anyone is interested in seeing me playing UW/r Miracles (RIP/Helm) vs UB Tezz - check it out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h6maJd-sJg
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Interesting video. I think I would have made a different decision on almost every turn of the entire video. Would you mind giving your though process for the plays that you feel were the most significant and maybe lay out potential other lines that you considered?
Thanks!
/new regged user!
If you want to ask me about specific plays I can answer. One that I for sure thought about most is fatesealing the Leyline to the bottom. When I saw it I knew he must have Helm in his deck and I did not want to die to runner runner (give him Leyline and he draws helm) since I had no counterspells to stop it. Other than that, I am not sure what you would do different than me? I did not top on turn 2 of game 1 because I wanted to have the ability to top deck either Counterbalance or hold up brainstorm to draw spell pierce potentially or fetch, activate top and draw spell pierce for tezz.
Let me know if I can answer some other plays...
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Why don't you Celestial Purge Tezz when you get to 3 mana, before he hets CA by finding Lodestone? You can just play Jace and bounce any threat next turn anyways. Around 12:30 ish.
I guess I was trying to get my Counterspell on, I can't bounce everything he can play like Helm/Leyline, other stuff that he may have in his that I am not aware of. It's definitely not a clear line. I get that he can make a 5/5 there too which could be a reason to C. Purge right away... probably a wrong play here.
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I think especially in game 1 you Brainstormed very aggressively. I think at one point you Brainstormed in response to Trinisphere I believe and then decided to Counterspell it anyway (which you had in hand before) and you had a Top in play which could've given you as much information as the Brainstorm. Granted if the information gained for some reason made you want to Brainstorm then you wouldn't have Counterspell mana but if you ever Brainstorm to get under the Trinishpere I assume that is because you don't want to counter it. Point being that you Brainstormed without being able to fetch and probably could've gotten a lot more value out of it?
I don't remember all the details now but in general it was mostly me thinking "Oh he did that, I probably would've done this" and it being unclear which was better or worse. Maybe I'll rewatch it later and think about more situations deeper.
Yeah the Leyline fateseal I was also skeptical off but perhaps that runner runner was the most real danger at that point.
yeah, that brainstorm was pretty loose :)
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Okay, here is another video of me playing UW/r Miracles w/ RIP/Helm, this time it is vs GW RIP/Helm Enchantress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJLa7X-NSng
Last edited by sauce; 04-11-2013 at 11:29 AM.
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A wild Alex appears...
In game 1, I think you were probably too quick to FoW the Master. I think I would have rather put back Top and Force of Will, taken a Master hit or two and then if you still don't find a Swords/Terminus on Top, you can always ETutor for an Oblivion Ring. That you found the 3rd Brainstorm makes Forcing seem a little more reasonable, but that's only in hindsight. Without knowing there would be another Brainstorm, it seems wasteful to FoW.
Also, at the end of that game, you can use both of Top's abilities in order to draw the Terminus for miracle then reorder to draw the RiP instead of the Top when you untap. It doesn't much matter in that case since he had no cards and you were about to win, but it's something to have in the bag.
In sideboarding, I would probably also rather leave out FoW and Purges for REB, Counterbalance, and ETutors. Maybe switch out the 2 Pierce for 2 FoW since you're on the draw. Game 2 played out pretty smoothly but man did he have a lot of Lodestone Golems.
Game 1 was pretty awkward hands. I do like the Brainstorm into Ponder turn much better than just playing the RiP though (it looked like you weren't sure at first). The turn that you FoW (around 4:20), since you know that Jace is on top, it might have been better to activate Top then draw so that you can FoW then try to hit 4 lands your next turn to play Helm. That'd give him a 1 turn clock to do something. Of course, it didn't matter since he awkwardly had the second Confinement. But since that wasn't your line, I don't understand why drawing with Top to make another land drop and play the 2nd RiP was better than passing with Top and two mana up.
Game 2 went pretty smoothly. Game 3, even though you have ETutor for the 3 drop, I think it might have been better to just blind trigger Counterbalance and then if it misses, FoW tossing the 2nd Clique. That way you can ETutor for Top EoT and have Top + Counterspell/Mana Leak up next turn. The game panned out really well, but Top would have probably progressed your gameplan a little faster and gotten you those land drops sooner.
Also (around 22:30), I think I would have mainphased the Brainstorm and put back Disenchant and Clique. That way you hopefully make a land drop and at worst you put a 2 and 3 drop on Top (which you know you'll likely need for Counterbalance anyways). It'd have also been fair to put back Clique and a FoW since his only cards were 3cmc and 5cmc last time you checked.
It has Nothing to do with personal play style. Joe's correct, you are not. Your opponent spinning Top makes you insecure, your opponent's getting into your head, you've been mentally compromised.
Just because your opponent's spinning Top and you are not, this does not make you fall behind every turn. It's a mental illusion you've created for yourself. This is especially true if he does not immediately break a fetch after spinning.
One of the most important things in a control mirror is hitting your land drops consistently. Being able to filter your draw every turn will undoubtedly pull you ahead in a MU where resource management is so important. The question was whether and when it is right to FoW in a fight for or against a Top. Honestly twndomn, whenever you post something I find myself trying to figure out whether you are just that pretentious, have a dubious grasp of magic, or trying to troll.
I agree with all points made here and fully endorse this message.
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I agree, I had no idea what he was playing. Here were my primary reasons to FoW the master:
#1 If I don't I could just fail to find answers and die. Or he could COTV @ 1 or who knows... no idea what he is playing. Probably the reason I FoW here.
#2 I have JTMS which can bounce him but I did not want to be at like 5 life by the time I start dealing with master considering I have no idea what else is in his deck.
#3 I have brainstorm + counterspell so I can afford to FoW here (which is still pretty wasteful)
#4 It was probably too hasty, obviously if I know what he is playing I would not FoW here. So I think you're still right, in retrospect, I shouldn't have FoW'd.
Yep, I agree. Just did not matter :-)
I usually keep FoW vs decks that can have broken turn 1 plays. I did not want to get behind a turn 1 trinisphere. I opted to leave red blast out just in case of CoTV @ 1 which I can beat. I figured C.purge killing his Tezz would most likely not be behind a CoTV @ 2 since I doubt he would play it at 2.
Reason I played 2nd RiP is to ensure that when if I draw land next turn I know he cant on his turn o-ring one of my RiP's so I can't win w/ helm. I did not want to expose Helm to oring since he has Mirri's guile going.
Thanks for watching and I appreciate your comments.
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Assuming Humility is in your board already, would you bring it in against goblins? It is a touch slow perhaps, but once it is in play most of their deck becomes very bad. Since I don't normally play Humility it has never come up for me before. I started thinking about it yesterday and it seems possible that it would be worth it. Maybe. Anyone who has played the card have an opinion on this?
Humility + Timely Reinforcements is awesome.
It's certainly cheaper (in multiple ways) than Moat + Baneslayer Angel.
Goblins is going to be a tough matchup for sure. Aether Vial and Cavern makes Counterbalance useless, and even with a fair amount of removal they can still swarm you. Pray for a timely Terminus and try to get a large Entreat to finish the game before they can out-attrition you.
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