A few things:
Re: Ruination vs Plow Under
If Turbo Eldrazi is your big concern with that slot, going with the card that just kills them is wayyy better even at the cost of a couple of your own lands. They can always Crop Rotation away one of the Plow Under targets anyway and that's super miserable. Plow Under is certainly better against the other grindy fair decks however, but I don't think you need it to win those games most of the time. Also the mana difference can certainly be a problem vs those decks.
Re: PFire vs Scapewish
TheArchitect and Arianrhod pretty much got it between the two of them.
If this ever happens playing PFire, you played wrong or kept a terrible hand. PFire absolutely rapes the Stoneblade decks.Originally Posted by TheArchitect
The biggest pull towards playing Scapewish is you have the "oops, I win" button. This comes at the expense of a sideboard able to beat combo decks and a slightly weaker manabase.
As Arianrhod said, with practice, either one should trounce any kind of fair deck. If you're fine losing to combo, Scapewish is perfectly reasonable, otherwise, you're going to want a real sideboard.
@Arianrhod:
I also missed day 2 by one round in Indy. I was on GBw at the time. I was 5-0 in Denver then lost all three win-and-ins to make day 2. Untimely mulligans and a few Griselbrands and Emrakuls later and I was out =/
I haven't played it in awhile, but the GB list in my signature is within a few cards of what I would play today.
No changes at the moment to PFire. The SCG KC list is still awesome. It'll change with the meta, but right now, it's where it should be.
Also I'll be more than willing to help you write about some of the subarchetypes you haven't played.
Still cannot abandon the idea of playing BUG nicfit with main FOW...
What you guys feel about this list?
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
2 Curfew
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ponder
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top
19 Blue cards main now which is kinda how low i'd ever go to play fow main :/, however kinda unsure about counterspell since UU cost..
Any suggestions?
Suggestions? Don't start a Nic Fit deck by chopping Explorers and Zeniths
If you go for blue snapcaster should replace Whitness completely
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@ HoneyT
That sideboard. Jesus. Do you board in 15 cards vs. combo or something? :D
That list looks super sweet, gotta test it out. One question, though: What land would you replace if you absolutely had to cram Stronghold in, and is it's absence more of a "doesn't do much, land might as well be colored" or a "the lack of coloured mana actively makes the deck a good bit worse" kind of thing? /recursionaddict
Sorry, forgot the fact you should stick to the tradition here and inetsad of actually developing something new ask for suggestion of a decklist that just recently won scg open except you replaced one maelstrom pulse with an abrupt decay. Now those list could actually use some suggestions no?
Btw whole intention was the interaction of curfew with the strong enter battlefield creatures commonly used in nic fit therefore both 2x witness and snappy.
Don't think you want to keep replaying Zenaga or Thragtusk over and over because they'll likely win by hitting once the battlefield. Zenaga without having Tusk already in play is underwhelming and feels like a Win-more. If you want a big blue card drawer, try Consecrated Sphinx. I would max the synergy of snapcaster/jace (bluecount) and spot solutions like Abrupt Decay than running a parallel angle with Whitness to rebuy Creatures and deeds, which both don't interact with MegaMan. That said, i still prefer the synergy of Abrupt Decay, Whitness and Zenith for a stream of destruction.
Reducing the copies of Zenith and Explorer doesn't make any sense because they carry the concept. Chopping LED's and Dark Rituals in TES would be a similar mistake
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I played a GPT to finals with p-fire nic fit with 15 anti-combo cards in SB. I conceded the finals though since i'm not going to Strasbourg(?) so he could have the 3 byes.
Also that tournament I _ONLY_ played against combo decks(serious).
Reanimate
"New" reanimate (tin fins?)
Cephalid Breakfast
Sneak and show
High tide
So yeah, I think p-fire with anti combo sb is the best way to go if u want to win against combo. It's boing as hell, granted, but better than losing
Dang, I was hoping the Gruul fuse spell was going to be a viable wish target...
Armed {1}{R}
Sorcery
Target creature gain +1/+1 and double strike until end of turn.
/ <Fuse>
Dangerous {3}{G}
Sorcery
All creatures able to block target creature do so this turn.
Uncommon
Hi! Newly regged user. Lurked for a while. Been playing Magic since Ice Age. Nic Fit is cool so now I join the discussion!
I think this is a very narrow minded way to think about deck design. Every card in every deck is there (or at least SHOULD be there) for a reason. Now obviously both Explorer and Zenith yfill important roles for Nic Fit as an archetype but automatically dismissing any list without 4 of each seems dubious.
As for drfontaine's specific list I can definately see reasons for trimming both numbers. The overall curve of this list seems lower than most Nic Fit builds and does not seem as dependant on ramping as other lists which needs something like 6+ mana in order to win because this list plays 4 Jace that can be cast (as evidenced by many other archetypes) without explorer ramp. Also with Snapcaster and Curfew this list can interact more than usual in the early stages of the game. Vs some decks, as most here seem to realize, ramping with explorer is not even what you want to be doing, and in the late game Explorer can often be a bad draw. 3 seem fine since you need to make sacrifices somewhere in order to be able to play FoW with a reliable enough blue count and I feel Explorer is a fine trim. Similarily Zenith seems trimmable as this list doesn't play that many targets as some other lists, Explorer isn't as crucial as I have already explained and with Brainstorm and Jace can be found more reliably.
I also don't think Zegana is win more and even with just a Witness or Snapcaster in play, drawing 3 card's should be a strong enough play to solidify the gamestate in your favour. Playing a Zenithable threat (that is also blue) I feel is MUCH better than playing a Consecrated Sphinx even though that obviously is also a very powerful card (I don't like Empath fwiw). However my concern is that Zegana still might be a bit underpowered and that something like Primeval Titan would be better. Still the issue of the bluecount is very relevant.
As for Witness I think it is very strong in this list with Curfew, Brainstorm, Jace etc, both for returning them and for blocking. Snapcaster is strong as well but I wouldn't want to play too many as there aren't that many targets and he can't be Zenithed.
All in all seems like a solid list with better game 1 against combo than most other Nic Fit lists I've seen but maybe it does give up a bit much vs other archetypes?
Further discussion would be interesting!
Is Sarkhan Vol ever considered in the PFire version or is it tooo cute?
His +1 speeds up GSZ target, hasty Primetime sounds cute.
The -2 Ability looks usefull in different scenario's. Like S&T drops Emmy and passes turn.
And his ultimate is kinda like Garruk PH, but are smaller and have evasion and combined always deal 20 damage unblocked.
List looks interesting, however i agree that cutting Explorers really hurts the deck. Most games that i can't get started quickly enough is simply because of not getting Explorer online.
Only 1 Spotremoval is alos really pushing it, you're relying on Deed or Counters to get everything done is really difficult.
Snapcaster Mage also isn't very amazing, considering that there are only 10 spells in the deck you'd really want to flashback, aka Counterspell, Ponder, BS, Curfew and the 1 Pulse, however, i do like the idea of Curfew for Witness Shenanigans.
I'd try starting with something like :
-1 Ponder
-2 Snapcaster
-1 Underground Sea
+1 Veteran Explorer
+1 Maelstrom Pulse/Abrupt Decay
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Vendilion Clique/Venser, Shaper Savant - these also work really well with Curfew, and are badly needed for the blue count.
That leaves you with 17 Blue cards, which should be enough for 3x FoW to work.
If you feel you're light on Blue cards, i'd probably cut the Sensei's Divining Tops for either Coiling Oracles or more Cliques/Vensers. Having 1 Coiling Oracle makes zenithing for X=2 something you can actually do aswell if needed.
That said, here's the list i'm probably taking to GP Strasbourg:
23 Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Creeping Tar Pit
12 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Thragtusk
2 Eternal Witness
1 Terastodon
8 Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Abrupt Decay
6 Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
7 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Karn Liberated
1 Tamiyo, the Moon's Sage
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Force of Will
1 Memoricide
1 Flusterstorm
2 Negate
1 Damnation
The mainboard feels quite good, it has a couple of spot removals to get you through the early-game if you can't ramp up, the Strix' are amazing Recurring Nightmare Fodder and the best blockers/planeswalker protectors ever :)
The sideboard is mainly geared towards beating Combo, and an extra Damnation vs Tribal/Aggro, so that you can also Gifts for either 4x Removal or Deed/Damnation/Witness/Recurring Nightmare.
Haha it depends on the combo deck. Against High Tide absolutely! Against TES it's a mere 12 =P
In all seriousness, this is a good a time as any to talk about my sideboard seeing as how there's quite a bit of discussion about it.
This is the basics of the deck: Rape the fair decks. Lose most game 1's to combo. Do not lose games 2 and 3 to combo. That's it in a nutshell. The fact of the matter is my Punishing Fire list is so good against the fair decks, it allows me to dedicate my sideboard space to combo where the help is greatly needed. That being said, Legacy is a very broad format. Sideboard space is valuble and each slot needs to be thought out carefully. The cards need to overlap if possible to strengthen other matchups to make the most efficient use of your space. I'll give a quick rundown of my current sideboard to explain what I mean.
2x Thoughtseize - Great against combo of all varieties and also used in fair matchups when I board out some number of Explorers/Therapies.
3x Surgical Extraction - Obviously good against graveyard decks, but very good against other combo decks too in conjunction with the discard spells. You can really make it difficult for some decks to win by making them discard a key card then getting rid of the rest of them too.
2x Slaughter Games - Similar to Extractions, these are also great against Miracles as an uncounterable way of stripping their very few win conditions.
3x Red Elemental Blast - Insane against Show and Tell and High Tide as far as combo goes, and great against the fair blue decks as well. Nuking cantrips out of Storm is perfectly fine when it's backing your discard.
3x Carpet of Flowers - This one is actually mostly for the fair decks in which I board out Explorers or want the additional ramp vs RUG, but again serves multiple purposes as it also is great against Island based combo a la High Tide, Show and Tell, etc..
2x Mindbreak Trap - This is the only card in the board that doesn't really serve multiple purposes. The maindeck is so favored against the fair decks that we don't need to spend much sideboard space to deal with them. This allows us to play a few narrow cards that just kill some combo decks. Storm is the most prevalent combo deck where I'm at, so Mindbreak Trap is where I'm at. This slot could just as easily be dedicated slots to Sneak and Show in some metagames as that's my list's current biggest weakness. There's not much of it in my meta, so I'm not dedicating any slots to it. It's very hard for them to win post-board if they don't find Leyline of Sanctity anyway.
TL;DR: We kick the shit out of fair decks. Use most sideboard space for combo.
@ Zombie:
As for the Volrath's Stronghold, as much as I love the card, it's just not needed right now. The colored requirements in this deck are a big deal and Kessig Wolf Run is a way better colorless land. I wouldn't cut a land for it, it would be a spell slot or the 61st card if I felt the deck needed it.
@ Bobmans:
I've considered Sarkhan Vol. He just doesn't seem like he does enough. The deck doesn't play that many creatures to make his 1st ability that great. He doesn't really do anything on an empty board, where Garruk just takes over the entire game. The second ability would be cute if you're guaranteed to kill them or have a Phyrexian Tower or Therapy in the yard, but again doesn't do anything by himself. Overall he's just not worth it. I'd rather play the more powerful planeswalker.
@ drfontaine:
That list certainly looks interesting. It's certainly worth toying around with, though I agree with the initial changes Viridia suggested.
@ Viridia:
Good luck in Strasbourg! Make sure to keep us posted!
- My advice would be to not ever reduce the numbers of GSZ and/or Explorers below 4. I have done it before because I thought I needed the room and it was always a mistake. GSZ is nothing but a blessing for this deck: In the opening hand it is the difference between a keep and a Mulligan and in the late game you are happy when you topdeck it. There is no way in hell you can find 57 better cards than GSZ.
This is an Explorer deck so play 4 of them. It also lets you maximize the number of Explorer/Therapy starts. Explorer and GSZ also have synergy: if you have both you can make a big GSZ instead of using it for Explorer.
- Imo Sarkhan Vol and Prime Speaker Zegana are both bad. Planeswalkers have to defend themselves AND create value. Sarkhan does neither... And 6-drops have to be good even if they hit the board by themselves because that will frequently happen in a deck full of Deeds in a format full of Removal and Countermagic.
I'm going to try a Deathrite shaman instead of a 3rd top for the scg this weekend. Either that or cut a thoughtseize or the starved ruskla.
For Rector question you have to ask Arian. I haven't played with it in a long time.
@BUG players: What are your experiences with FoW in the SB? Against TES/ANT it happened relatively frequently that I would have FoW + Negate/Mindbreak Trap and they would probe+Therapy me. Then they could take the Trap/Negate with Therapy and kill me with a dead FoW in hand. I also don't want to bring in Mindbreak Trap and Negate against Elves but then I don't have enoguh blue cards to support FoW (which I would want to stop Glimpses).
I think of cutting it for a mix of Thoughtseizes and Carpets.
Taking everyones suggestions into consideration regarding drfontaine's BUG list I tinkered a bit with it and came up with this:
CREATURES (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Coiling Oracle
4 Baleful Strix
2 Eternal Witness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
3 Pernicious Deed
SORCERIES (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
INSTANTS (9)
4 Brainstorm
2 Curfew
3 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (5)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
LANDS (21)
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Island
SIDEBOARD
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chill
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Force of Will
The list has a blue count of 20 maindeck. I am not a huge fan of Coiling Oracle but it's a blue card that is Zenithable at least. 21 lands with 2 Tar Pit might be pushing it but I think that playing Primeval Titan is the most reliable but still powerful threat when playing Zenith and is really strong with 2 Tar Pit. I cut Snapcasters due to low target count. Strix I think really puts this list together as it is a blue card that is quasi removal which allows you to hopefully get away without any Decays, Pulses or otherwise and instead stall with Strix/Oracle and Curfew shenanigans until you can Deed.
Tamiyo was added to be another blue bomb but might not be good enough. 4 Jace seems really good for this list. I am skeptical about the complete removal of Sensei Top (which was made to get blue count satisfactory) but might be possible due to 4 Brainstorm and 4 Jace, which both don't have the best synergy with Top.
I kept 4 Explorer and 4 Zenith but I still think that for this type of list (with fewer top end cards and potentially less need for the ramp) it could be possible to trim them for more blue cards or maybe put in some Tops again.
I have too little experience with BUGfit to really make good judgements about the mana base so maybe I have too few duals, maybe their numbers should be swapped, maybe tweak the amount of basics, and maybe add another land total.
For the board I put in an extra Clique and Venser to pad bluecount vs combo as well as the 4th Force. Chill was added in spite of bad synergy with Deed to give some potential vs Burn strategies but is probably not enough. I also put Thrun in the board as my experience is that he is mostly a roadblock rather than a beater and with 4 Strix and Oracle you already have plenty of that in the main, but hexproof can be really strong so I like having the effect in the 75.
Thoughts?
This is a big reason why I dislike FoW in the board and playing less than 19-20 blue cards maindeck when playing it. It is also why it is so hard to build a deck with both Brainstorm and GSZ, Nic Fit or not, since it puts so much constraint on the overall deck design. If there could ever be a Nic Fit list with say 22 blue cards maindeck with FoW, still have 4 Therapy and healthy amounts of Explorers and Therapy, and enough good threats for Zenith then I think it would be a strong contender for "best" deck in Legacy, even though that is obviously a very abstract and contextual concept.
I really like this one for Rector versions and maybe for others too:
Varolz, the Scar-Striped 1BG
Legendary Creature - Troll Warrior
Each creature card in you graveyard has scavenge. The scavenge cost is equal to its mana cost.
Sacrifice another creature: Regenerate Valroz, the Scar-Striped.
2/2
Just one more Mana than Starved Rusalka (if you count the activation cost) and it gives much better value. Scavenging Explorers for one Mana is solid and at some point you might just Scavenge a Titan. Not insane but solid and might make the difference in grindy games.
Strongly agreed. The only thing that I don't like about him is that his decision trees are going to be very complex. Rector in particular is based heavily about graveyard recursion due to the presence of, and ease of access to, Recurring Nightmare. So by scavenging dead creatures, even things you might not usually want to get back ever like Explorers, you can end up harming yourself in the long run.
That's not saying that I think he isn't playable or any such -- just that we can't willy-nilly scavenge freely like we might want to.
I'll likely start by testing him alongside Rusalka and see if/how often the 1 extra mana makes a difference. I know I've (rarely) been sufficiently up shit creek mana-wise that being able to Zenith@1 and then pay for Rusalka's sacrifice on my next turn has sometimes been a thing. I'll also want to evaluate how often I scavenge in real game scenarios vs how often I want to keep options open for Nightmare.
Note: I think that this guy is insane for the more creature-heavy aggro-based G/B versions of yore....the ones that used to run like Strangleroot Geist and were much more aggressive in general. I'm not sure he's enough to resurrect the subarchetype, but it's possible.
I loved it. I've played your BUG list in the past couple of local tournaments and I've had FoW win me a match vs. Aluren and one vs. TES. I did lose a match to ANT because of the situation you describe. I have two more local tournaments before Milwaukee where I will continue to test it out. If I don't play FoW, it's very tempting to just play Scapeshift.
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