Scenario: I have two blood scrivener in the battlefield and no cards in hand.
Blood Scrivener
Creature - Zombie Wizard
If you would draw a card while you have no cards in hand, instead draw two cards and lose 1 life.
2/1
Then, I draw a card.
1. Blood Scrivener A triggers, replaces the "draw a card" by "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life"
2. Blood Scrivener B triggers, replaces "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life" for "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life. draw a card. lose 1 life."
If the above steps are correct, what rule prevents the following steps to take place?
3. Blood Scrivener A triggers again, replaces "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life. draw a card. lose 1 life" for "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life. draw a card. lose 1 life. draw a card. lose 1 life"
4. Blood Scrivener B triggers again, continuing the infinite loop.
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
Edit: hum... re-thinking and not sure about what i said... :)
Last edited by cdr; 04-12-2013 at 10:59 AM.
Originally Posted by DrJones
Scenario: I have two blood scrivener in the battlefield and no cards in hand.
Blood Scrivener
Creature - Zombie Wizard
If you would draw a card while you have no cards in hand, instead draw two cards and lose 1 life.
2/1
Then, I draw a card.
1. Blood Scrivener A triggers, replaces the "draw a card" by "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life"
2. Blood Scrivener B triggers, replaces "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life" for "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life. draw a card. lose 1 life."
If the above steps are correct, what rule prevents the following steps to take place?
3. Blood Scrivener A triggers again, replaces "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life. draw a card. lose 1 life" for "draw a card. draw a card. lose 1 life. draw a card. lose 1 life. draw a card. lose 1 life"
4. Blood Scrivener B triggers again, continuing the infinite loop.
Blood Scrivener doesn't trigger, it's a replacement effect. The line of play you outlined will not work.
When/whenever/at = trigger.
Instead = replacement effect.
Much like like the Uba Mask thread, you have two replacement effects trying to apply to the same event. So you pick one, that one modifies the event, and you see if the other one applies.
The modified event is now "draw a card, draw a card, lose 1 life" and the second Scriviner will indeed apply to the event since you are drawing card(s) and have none in your hand. Each draw is also treated as a separate event, though, so the second Scriviner will only apply to the first draw. So "draw a card, draw a card, lose 1 life, draw a card, lose 1 life" and both replacements have applied to the event and we're done.
Last edited by cdr; 04-12-2013 at 11:54 AM. Reason: fixed
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I'm having a little trouble with this scenario. (#) references unique events.
Original event is "draw a card during draw step" (1)
BS#1 replaces the event with "draw a card (2), draw a card (3), lose 1 life (4)". The rules specifically treat drawing multiple cards as consecutive "draw a card" events.
BS#2 now sees the original event (1) being replaced with another "draw a card" (2), and modifies the event.
Resulting in:
"draw a card (5), draw a card (6), lose 1 life (7), draw a card (3), lose 1 life (4)"
Both Blood Scrivners have now modified the Draw Step and the replacements are complete.
Event #3 would not be replaced because at the time it would occur, a card would already be in the player's hand.
(1) was replaced with (2-4) from BS#1
(2) was replaced with (5-7) from BS#2
How did your result go to being
"Draw a card, draw a card, lose 1 life, draw a card, draw a card, lose 1 life, lose 1 life"?
As I understand it, Scrivner's ability only replaces the draw if the condition would be met, so after drawing a card it would not try to replace it.
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You're right, I edited above. The second Sciviner will only replace the first draw, since draws are treated as individual events, so you will draw 3 and lose 2 life.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Don't you mean draw 3 lose 1
Edit: Nvm I didn't think it through
This is surely a interaction we'll see in T2 if this cards sees any play. I expect headaches...
Now add Chains of Mephistopheles to that scenario...
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