Nice run:) I completely agree about the unhappiness of the BUG mu, they are our worst i believe. As for needle vs Mav. Always needle karakas first as it makes snt live and gives us racing opportunity. Then waste ghen kotr. At least ghats my strat. If im strong on lands ill get kotr over waste, depends on how the draws go.
Went 6-0 at the local with Sneak and Show. The list is generally stock, but I tried using Volrath's Shapeshifter to see how it would work. It wound up working incredibly well as a de facto Griselbrand.
Nice showing! Ca you give us a list, I'd love to see a rehab of good old Volrath:)
Volrath has errata. He is not as strong as he was before. It's useful only with Griselbrand, and that's a bad thing. It's like Seething Song for Sneak Attack. Don't use him. It's a waste of space.Originally Posted by Hollywood
I'm currently wondering what kind of sideboards people are running. I am currently using 4 Leyline of Sanctity 3 Graffdiggers Cage 3 Red Elemental Blast 2 Wipe Away and 3 Through the Breach
Legacy Decks:
UWR Delver
Imperial Painter
Burn
Manaless Dredge
This is what I'm planning on taking to SCG Milwaukee:
Grafidgger's Cage X3
Wipe Away X3
Defense Grid X3
Vendillion Clique X2
Flusterstorm X2
Pithing Needle X2
For the record I don't like it, but that's what SnT decks do to you. I am gambling on seeing a lot of RUG and Esper and a small amount of TES. I run Clique for the mirror as I find Through the Breach hard to cast. We'll see how it goes, with my luck I'l get 8 rounds of tempo BUG, but what can you do:) The meta is wide and the deck boards like sex at Bible camp.
cheers
defector
Tournament Report Time :) My 1st top 8 with the Deck please bare with my tournament report
Duel for Duals 3 (60+ Players)
Main Deck:
4 Sneak Attack
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Intuition
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroclasm
2 Wipe Away
Round 1 Bye 1-0
Won a bye from our local store :) This enabled me to check out the metagame, I swapped my sideboard after seeing so many Burn, Black Decks and Storm. Swapped out my 2 Blood Moons, 1 Pyroblast and 1 Boseiju for 4 Leyline of Sanctity. The change really paid off.
Round 2 Junk (Toughest Match that day) (Win 2-0)
Game 1 I keep a hand with no Combo pieces but a Brainstorm, a Spell Pierce and some lands and cantrips I guess. He goes 1st and hits me with a Thoughtseize taking my Brainstorm. I top deck a Sneak Attack and pass. He plays a Dark Confidant and passes. I think I place down the Sneak Attack via Ancient Tomb. He beats me down with Dark Confidant and a Deathrite Shaman and I don't have any cantrips to really dig out an Emrakul. I shuffle Ponder and top deck the Emrakul on the last turn with me facing Lethal. He has also gone down to below 15 life or exactly 15 life when I swing with Emrakul. Yep the deck loves me.
Game 2 I side in my Leylines and my Wipe Aways because I saw his Knight of the Reliquary. Opening hand did have double Sneak Attack but no disruption. He goes turn 1 Deathrite, turn 2 Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant, turn 3 Karakas and a Hymn to Tourach and a Dark Confidant. Then turn 4 he plays Liliana lol time to really scoop up the cards.
Game 3 I get a very awesome hand of Ponder, 2 Lands, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand and Leyline of Sanctity! Deep inside I was thinking it's impossible for me to lose lol Turn 0 Leyline and I play a land and Ponder I think and see 0 lands on the next 3 cards so I shuffle. My opponent plays a Turn 1 Karakas into Sensei's Top. I lay my 2nd land drop and not draw a land. On his turn 2 he mises his land drop, apparently we were both sort of screwed but he has Sensei's top to solve his problem. I miss 2 Land Drops while he makes 2 Lands drops and I think he plays a Tarmogoyf to end the game quickly. On turn 5 I draw an Ancient Tomb and I figured if I am going to Sneak Attack him I'll need a lot of lands and red sources so I Show and Tell Griselbrand to draw 7 cards. Of course he bounces the Griselbrand with Karakas. With my Show and Tell he lays down a Deathrite Shaman so now I'm on a faster clock. I was at 10 life after drawing cards but luckily after drawing 7 cards I discards some cards and an Emrakul to shrink his Tarmogoyf. He plays nothing and just attacks me with 3 damage with Tarmo and Deathrite, problem is he Wastelands my Ancient Tomb so I'm really screwed because I can't play the Show and Tell into Sneak Attack with 2 Red Sources to bypass Karakas. On the next turn I just lay a fetch to make 3 lands and simply pass because I will die if I Show and Tell my Sneak Attack and he plays down a creature. On his turn he makes a misplay of Thoughtseizing himself to grow his Tarmogoyf to 4/5 but I will still be down to 1 after the swings. I thought about countererng the Thoughtseize with Force of Will but I figured I might die so I just let him do his thing, If he had a double Card Type in his hand then I'm sure I'm dead. End of his turn I was hoping to draw 2 Mana Sources and I Brainstorm. 2 Lotus Petals on the Top wins me the game :) Show and Tell into Sneak Attack and double activation to bypass Karakas. This game got me super stressed out as squeezing in that win was super tough.
Round 3 SUPER LUCKY! Opponent went out to eat and he just didn't show up free win :) 3-0
Round 4 Show and Know (Win 4-0)
Game 1 We know each other so the pressure was a bit alleviated and I think I knew what I was fighting so no stressful decisions to be made. He goes Turn 3 Show and Tell with a Spell Pierce Back up but I casted a Brainstorm and a Flusterstorm. He doesn't know how Flusterstorm works I guess he was new to playing a Blue Deck because he used to pilot a Black Green Deck, he wasted his Spell Pierce on the Flusterstorm and the Show and Tell still gets countered. On my Turn I new he was out of Counters so I tap out into Sneak Attack. Next Turn was Sneak Attack Griselbrand into an Intuition for Emrakul :)
Board in: 2 Pyroblast, 2 Through the Breach, 2 Surgical Extraction
Board Out: 4 Show and Tell, 1 Preordain and 1 Emrakul I think
Game 2 I keep a hand of Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Pyroblast and 4 Lands. I top deck 4 Lands in a row with him hitting me twice with Thoughtseize and Pithing Needle for Sneak Attack. Talk about an unwinnable position! My 5th draw was a Ponder which I see a Griselbrand and a Force of Will and another land. I take the Griselbrand because in my mind I knew he was gonna go for it. He Show and Tells Emrakul and I lay down Griselbrand! How lucky that he didn't Show and Tell for Omniscience. The only thing left for me to do is look for Through the Breach, 14 cards later..... and I kill his Emrakul with Legend Rule with Through the Breach and it's smooth sailing from there with him on 2 cards vs my Griselbrand engine.
Round 5 Esper Stoneblade (Win 5-0)
Game 1 Don't remember much but he Inquisitions me but I misdirect it back to him with him not having a Force of Will. He discards a Jitte I think and I see his hand of Stoneforge Mystic and double Brainstorm. I go for a Show and Tell which gets Force of Willed. I play a Sneak Attack and he Spell Pierces I think but I can pay for it. Emrakul and Griselbrand the wonder twins swing for the Win.
Board in: 2 Pyroblast, 2 Through the Breach, 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Wipe Away
Board out: 4 Lotus Petal, 2 Intuition, 1 Preordain, 2 Flusterstorm and 1 Force of Will I think.
Game 2 Opening Hand Leyline of Sanctity and the combo again, super lucky! I don't remember much but I get Sneak Attack into play after him countering 2 of my enablers. He plays a Vendillion Clique but he forgets that I have Leyline in Play and I Sneak in Emrakul. I top deck for 4 turns into another Emrakul and win :)
Round 6 Miracle Helm (Lose 5-1)
Weirdest thing happened, we had 7 rounds of swiss and I'm the only undefeated player and I can't double ID because the next seed to me is 4-0-1 and he needs to hit that 5th win to secure top 8. He offers me his prize if I don't get into top 8 because based from computation he was confident that I will make it to top 8 even if I give him the win and Draw the last round.
Round 7 RUG Delver (ID 5-1-1)
ID into Top 8 :p I'm 7th place while my RUG Delver opponent is 8th place barely squeezing into Top 8.
Top 8 Playoffs Miracle Helm (SBGPinas)
I was paired with my Team mate and see that he has the best chances to advance to the Final so I give it to him. We play one game and well he gets a lucky Counterbalance flip of Jace vs my Sneak Attack. I lose when I Intuition for Show and Tell and he plays Helm of Obedience with Rest in Peace in play lol
Props to my super lucky draws and my round 3 opponent skipping round 3 lol and of course for SBGPinas and me both making top 8. I won a Verdant Catacombs and a share of a Tundra and half a Scrubland (Cashed), not bad for a day of fun and stress. I had an unbelievable luck of siding in Leyline and drawing it the on my 1st 7 cards and ever draw the other 3 Leylines.
I'll modify the sideboard as I predict a Meta-shift back into Control with double Miracles in the top 8 this tournament.
Sometimes I wonder what it would be if I had 4 Stifle instead of the Petals!!! Petals are good for 2 reasons. Generally, help in turn 1 combo (Sol-Land + Petal > Show and Tell + Fattie), and when a Grislebrand is out, so you can draw 7 or 14 cards to find a Petal and the other fattie. The first situation is very rare to happen, however the second one is very risky. Depends to your life total, if you're below 14 you just cant draw more than 7. I almost never sacrifice my Petal, to play Ponder or Brainstorm.
From the other side, Stifle is an answer to fetchlands, Planeswalkers, "comes into play - bounce" creatures like Sower of Temptation or Stingscourger, or Karakas but the most important is to counter the Sneak's Attack delayed triggered ability.
I dont know... I have a good feeling about this. Ill test it out and come back for the results.
Well according to TheCouncil, this deck is not just a Deck to beat, but it's THE deck to beat or very close to it for March 2013, just about tied with 1 other deck for that top spot for the month.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Hi guys, I'm new to this forum. I've been active on the posts on Omni-tell and Dream Halls forums. After so many countless testings with a mono blue Dream Halls deck similar to Rob V., who placed at SCG sometime recently, I realize the deck is not good. I say so because if you play Cunning Wish, you have less counters to cast in a counter war. If you don't play Cunning Wish, you lose to random cards. For example, if you cast Show and Tell, your opponent can put into the battlefield an Emrakul, Oblivion Ring, Karakas, etc depending on what you're facing. Anyone may refute my argument. I'm all ears. I realize the advantage with Sneak Attack vs. Dream Halls is Sneak Attack is one turn faster, thus more versatile in it's usefulness. At any point in the match when you feel you need to have card advantage to deal with a threat or situation, you can always pop Griselbrand in and draw 7 if needed, assuming you have enough life to activate this ability if you have a Sneak Attack out with a Griselbrand in hand and 1 red mana source active.
Here are some questions to everyone: How good is Intuition in this deck? Is it replaceable? At what times are you casting Intuition, and for what are you casting it for? Is it possible that sometimes, you may not need Intuition because luck is on your side? How good is Sensei's Divining Top in this deck? Do you feel that it deserves a slot in this deck because it's ability to sculpt hands really well? Is there any way we can possibly use Stifle in this deck to stop this deck from losing to small percentage to randomness? Is Vendilion Clique good to sideboard in against the mirror?
Nice questions. From my point of view...
Intuition is not bad. Its very good against non-blue decks (Goblins, Maverick) and low-counter decks, and mediocre against blue-counter decks. Some players play for 0 to 1, I prefer to play 3. Im a Intuition "lover". I have decide to play with "free" counters, like FoW, Daze, MisDirection, and in hard times I pick (for example) a Misdirection to redirect my opponent's Hymn to Tourach.
About SDT... with 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 0-3 Intuitions i dont think we need it. Besides that there is no room. Its an artifact too (i mean non-blue). I dont want to cut counters for an other searcher.
Stifle... Stifle is a big story. I believe that Stifle deserve a place in the decklist. Look 2 messages above what I wrote about Stifle :
"Sometimes I wonder what it would be if I had 4 Stifle instead of the Petals!!! Petals are good for 2 reasons. Generally, help in turn 1 combo (Sol-Land + Petal > Show and Tell + Fattie), and when a Grislebrand is out, so you can draw 7 or 14 cards to find a Petal and the other fattie. The first situation is very rare to happen, however the second one is very risky. Depends to your life total, if you're below 14 you just cant draw more than 7. I almost never sacrifice my Petal, to play Ponder or Brainstorm.
From the other side, Stifle is an answer to fetchlands, Planeswalkers, "comes into play - bounce" creatures like Sower of Temptation or Stingscourger, or Karakas but the most important is to counter the Sneak's Attack delayed triggered ability.
I dont know... I have a good feeling about this. Ill test it out and come back for the results."
Finally Clique is really good against mirror because its a ticking CLOCK. Not only 3 dmg per turn, not only discards a card from opponent's hand, but reduces the strength of his Griselbrand. Besides that, when a mirror match is placed, players play really slow (and 3dmg is an axe in his head)... They want to full their hand with counters and as many Emrakuls as they can find. Because only Emrakul is good agains't mirror. (if the opponent plays SnT for Griselbrand, and you play Emrakul, you win next turn. If both play Emrakul, you dont lose and he has lost a spell. I he puts an Emrakul and you a Griselbrand, you lose).
I've been playing a no-petals list, but just +1 land (20 lands) and +3 cantrips (making room for 2 intuition, 2 preordain, 2 top).
I think you've identified the two main benefits of petal. The first is the real reason to play petal, in my opinion. Being able to get a S&T or Sneak Attack out one turn quicker can be very important. In that situation, you're sacrificing one type of reliability (mana base / sculpting / counters) for another (speed).
The second situation is the one, however, in which petal is overvalued. If you get Griselbrand out and draw 7-14, you are almost certainly going to win the game, regardless of whether its in 0-1 turns or 1-2. Drawing petals in that situation is only a "win more" situation--it does help you win a turn earlier than you normally would, but at that point you don't usually need speed.
Are you allowed to do this???
I can give you some perspective from the other side. Intuition is mainly a win more/win less card in Sneak Show. Decks like goblins, Jund, mav, junk etc are weak to it but also are eak to your 75 in general. Decks like BUG/ RUG/ Esper are strong against it. You almost have to side out g2/3 due to se being everywhere. It's a powerful card with a powerful effect, but at 3 cmc I just want to cast snt. Anyway I would encourage testing and play. Start with 2 and see how you feel about it. Players have proven you don't need it to win but it shows up in a lot of top 8 lists.
Cheers
Defector
Some more analysis...
About the first condition, yes Petal is an accelerator. But how many times that scenario came on board? First turn yours > Sol land + Petal + Show and Tell + Fattie, and all these without opponent's Force Of Will, and without any "comes into play" traps from him. The possibilities are extremely low. It has happen to me playing with my friends few times, but never in a tournament. Even if I have the combo in my hand, I prefer to wait some turns to get some counters. In all other circumstances you just play a land and the petal, and your opponent a land. So in turn 2 you have 2 mana more (plus the land you play).
From the other side, Stifle can be a DECELERATOR with the same results. The next turn, you have 2 more mana, 2 lands, and your opponent 0 lands since everybody plays duals. And if he don't, some turn after he will play the dual.
If we compare the 2 examples I prefer to keep Stifle. It applies to most situations PLUS, its is a "horror" card. It gives some horror to opponent psychologically. Plays with his mind. You make him think twice about his lands or his activates abilities. Surely that card will slow him down. Starting with his thoughts. An other example for "horor" cards are Daze, and Misdirection. With Daze we slow him 1 turn, and due to Misdirection probably he sideboard the Hymns. I dont insist that everybody play Daze and MisD... but I do, and I explain why.
The othe scenario is that with Griselbrand. Gris is in play, probably with Sneak Attack, and you want to draw 7+7 cards to find a Petal and Mr.M. As I told before, its risky. And its not working in late game, or if you 're low at life. With Stifle you draw the 7 cards before or after the attack (or you dont draw at all if you need the life), it doesnt matter, (depending if you have a second Red mana for Emrakul), and you STIFLE the delayed triggered ability. So you can use him next turn as well. If its not Griselbrand and its Emrakul... 2 attacks from him surely finish the game because he stays on the board.
I think, and this is a personal assessment, that Stifle is greater here too. I dont mention that prevents a creature to go to graveyard... with what this entails (Extirpate for example)
If we sacrifice some "uncertain" speed, to add some more synergy, i believe that better results will come.
When I read it, I did a double-take as well. Seems like cheating / disqualifying conduct. But if it's Regular REL, perhaps the practice can be allowed by the TO. Still, highly suspect.
Very good point re: Intuition. I almost always board it out due to surgical extraction fears. I think it's still pretty good g1 against those decks you listed, though. If you don't really need it to assemble the combo, it sometimes will bait a soft counter; if it doesn't, it can be used to snag a second sol-land and help you play around soft counters (being able to play Show & Tell on turn 3 with 2 colorless open against RUG/BUG/Esper is strong, though admittedly wasteland foils this plan).
In the end for me, it's really just about making the G1 more consistent than it otherwise would be.
some thoughts:
Intuition is necessary in main deck almost 2x, to win quickly some MU.
I kepp it in g2-3 vs aggro deck.
I try to play one inutition but , statistically some times we are too slow to win some Mu's situations.
I have a good sensation on :
-20 lands
-counter's configuration 4 fow 2 misd 3 pierce 2 fluster
-I cut 1 ponder to play with 2 intuition
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=76430
Side that I use now:
4 leyline
3 grid
3 boseiju
1 wipe away
1 rushing river
2 piroclasm
1 reb
I cut cage because in this meta it isn't important.
Totally seems like cheating to me....
Legacy Decks:
UWR Delver
Imperial Painter
Burn
Manaless Dredge
It is plain cheating and the reason for decklists and deckchecks
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