The deck is like a rock-solid castle that cannot be invaded by the enemies - so it is unbeatable. That is the intention of the name.Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
As an American, this is a new fact to me. However, the deck doesn't really have anything to do with castles.
Unbeatable? are you certain? only two things are certain in life: Death and taxes :p
...until abrupt decay kills vial on turn two. (I played Death & Taxes near-exclusively for a year, so no real criticism, just observation, here)
@Sasan: That makes sense, I guess.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
No worries, it was just a joke, because Death and taxes has won GP over RUG in the finals :p
Felt obliged to make that joke when smeone mentions an unbeatable deck.
Also, BUG is probably a good matc up for D&T and so it must be the case for BURG :p.
Ok enough digression, i let you guys talk about your pet deck :)
PS: I know that you played it a lot, i saw you were posting a lot on MTG salvation.
I do not think that burg is unbeatable, I was only explaining the intention of the name. For of our best players in Germany put it together so they are very confident and want to stress that in the name :-)
But I think we should have a separate thread concerning burg. Or do yo think we should talk about it here?
Probably a separate thread. The 4-C Deathrite thread has focused on UBWG, but BURG is welcome as well.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Just so you know, I'm one of the people who designed the deck and that is not the name's intention. Timo just thought it would be funny to name it that way and then we made a few jokes about that. Also, I think it's kind of appropriate to discuss it here rather than in the four colour Delver thread because Carsten and I have played Threshold a lot and we both see it as an update to the threshold list we played for the last year or so. It's only five spells off the maindeck we played in Ghent - I guess you can tell which ones.
what happened in the gp? No sulfuric vortex in rug sideboars!! What do you think about that ?
When I got word of the Burg deck some weeks before the GP I couldn't believe those guys were developing a 4c deck with Wastelands - Insanity!
On another note: can someone explain the Zuran Orb in Wilson's sideboard to me?
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Hi everyone, it's my first post on the forums :)
Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on sylvan library in this deck, as I've seen lists with and without it. Thanks :)
They also ran stuff like Ancient Grudge and Zuran Orb; doesn't mean we should pick it up as the gold standard. Vortex is super at closing control matches and killing Jund.
Furthermore, we can't say that no RUG Delver lists ran Vortex in the board, as we only have information about the Top 8 or so.
@Force of Life: It's usually a sideboard card, if ran at all. I like library for control matches, so if you're expecting it, run it. Main, however, there is a lack of space for such a card.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
pre-board, bug feels pretty bad (post-board feels alright, however). does anyone have advice on this topic? goyf is awesome against me, decay stops my goyfs and delvers, and monguises are ruined by deathrite. liliana also doesn't help my cause. is there something i should be doing pre-board that i'm probably not doign?
The best advice I have from playing the BUG side is to never let BUG untap with Deathrite Shaman. Yeah, it's not great advice, but that's all I got. If they're playing greedy value BUG, keeping them off mana should allow you to win. If they're playing BUG Delver, they're going to be able to out-attrition you with Hymn, so your goal is to not let them resolve Hymn and stifle their mana enough to kill them before they drop Tombstalker. Neither seem like especially good matchups preboard for Thresh.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
yeah it just felt terrible. ill keep that in mind, i learned that deathrite was pretty good against rug.
Zuran Orb was a card versus mono red-burn.
@Gitaxian Probe: I also think it's a good idea as the information is too good. It's a shame I can't find space to run it. Many decks ran 1x Forked Bolt. I found that curious. Why not just run Chain Lightning then?
@Deathrite Shaman: Shaman is crazy good, but can we stop trying to shove him in every deck. He's very splashable, but we don't need to come up with Esper Deathblade, and BURG just because we want to run Shaman. I just feel like it's messing with the whole dynamic of the deck. Run Grim Lavamancer if you want to do 2 damage...
I can't find the 'like' button to like this comment...
Pretty sure I've read the same about Tarmogoyf a few years ago...
Further, Grim and Deathrite are two very different cards. Grim shoots down creatures, Deathrite taps for mana and does some splash damage. To be honest, I was thinking about playing Deathrite off just a single Underground Sea, the only reason not to do so is Abrupt Decay, which is rather important. Shaman fits perfectly, it improves every matchup where your opponent is not running Wasteland and it's not bad against decks with Wasteland either - you cast Delver on turn one, draw out their removal, then cast Shaman on two and never lose to Wasteland again. Pretty sweet.
Tarmogoyf filled in a much needed niche in decks where aggro match ups were a problem. Tarmogoyf became the security guard that protected those decks.
Deathrite Shaman does not fill this same niche in Tempo Thresh. Tempo Thresh already has a ton of 1-drops. Tempo Thresh already has a damage plan and removal, so weakening the mana base further is unnecessary. Shaman and Grim Lavamancer are very much comparable. Just because they don't have exactly the same abilities doesn't make them uncomparable.
They are both 1 drops that you hope to use to close out games in the late game where Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose cannot finish. The advantage of it is that it can produce mana in the early game. It also can access the opponent's graveyard as well without disrupting the Tempo Thresh plan. That's all fine and good. I am an advocate of Deathrite Shaman, but by playing him in Tempo Thresh, which already has mana troubles doesn't make the deck stronger. You are simply trying to do too much.
This deck already runs a sub-20 land base with 6 actual colour producing lands. I don't see where Deathrite Shaman can fit in here. If you were to splash the extra colours, you'll come to find that you will have troubles else where. Adding Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay also makes cutting you off of mana much easier leaving you with more virtual dead cards (which is already a problem for Tempo Thresh sometimes).
I just don't see how adding Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman in a deck that already has tons of removal and 12 efficient creatures can help the deck out. It doesn't fill any need the deck doesn't already have options for.
Greetings All!
I am back after a bit of a RUG hiatus. I have been toying around with various other tempo strategies in the UW and UWR realm for the past few weeks with some successes and a few failures. However, in this testing, I never really settled on an exact deck or a configuration that I was really pleased with. So this week I went back to square one, which for me is RUG. This week we had 14 people and I ended 2nd getting squeaked out of of 1st on tiebreakers.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
2 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfur Elemental
4 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
I think the maindeck was pretty solid although an extra Spell Snare might be better than the 3 Spell Pierces. My sideboard was heavily meta-gamed to defeat BUG and Jund, which had been showing up in solid numbers the past few weeks. This turned out to be a poor call. I took out some of my additional artifact hate to hedge out the BG decks. Anyway I ended up going 3-0-1, beating monobalck reanimator, affinity, and Stoneblade. I drew with Stoneblade. Here is a quick synopsis of the rounds.
Round 1: Monoblack Reanimator (2-0)
This match wasn't very close. I won the die roll and began game one with a turn one delver. He played a swamp. I followed my delver, which naturally flipped, with a Tarmogoyf after attacking for three. My opponent played a second swamp and cast Hymn to Tourach, which I Dazed. At this point I replayed my dual that I returned to hand, crashed for six, and passed. He got stuck on two land and died two combats later. I was lucky to catch a glimse of some fatties during his shuffling which informed me of how to sideboard.
Sideboarding: -2 Wasteland, +2 Surgical Extraction
Game two was very similar. I curved out well with FoW and Daze back up, while countering his reanimation effects. He ran an Exhume into a Daze and then an Animate Dead into a Stifle. He succumbed to Aberration and Lhurgoyf beats in a few turns. This wasn't really much of a win as his deck didn't seem to be optimized. Additionally this guy was just getting back into the tournament scene... so he clearly didn't know hardly any of the intricacies of the format.
Round 2: Esper Stoneblade (1-1-1)
Game one my opponent stabilized at 1 life... when he killed me my hand was Fetch, Fetch, Trop, Daze. Worth noting that I had a Trop, Volc, and fetch in play. What I wouldn't have given for a Brainstorm!
Sideboarding: -2 Delver of Secrets, -2 Force of Will; +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sulfur Elemental (I was wishing that I had additional Elementals or Grudges/Grips here...)
Game two was better. I was able to severely hinder his board development by Stifling a fetch and Wasting a Underground Sea in back to back turns. He succumbed to Goose and Goyf beats. There wasn't really much interaction this game... He resolved a SFM, which I Spell Snared, and then he FoWed. I then Bolted it stranding the Batterskull in his hand.
Sideboarding: -2 Daze, +2 FoW
We were under the gun for this one as far as time was concerned, as game one had taken quite awhile. I managed to clear him down to 8 life with a Delver, Goose, and Goyf. He cleaned up my board with a StP and Snapcaster for the StP leaving me with a lone Goose. This was quickly outclassed by 4 Lingering Souls tokens. I was lucky enough to Ponder into the lone Sulfur Elemental. Which I couldn't cast on 3 mana after Pondering. He attacked with 2 tokens and cast SFM. I drew a land to compliment the Fire/Ice and Grudge in my hand and passed back. He attacked with the two Souls again to which I cleaned up the souls with the elemental. He passed back leaving mana up to SFM in Batterskull. I untap, play that forth land as it would give me access to both Grudge and Fire that combat, and attacked with both guys. He SFMed in Batterskull, I grudged before blockers and then Fired his SCM and SFM leaving his board clear. I got in for 6. However he had StP on Sulfur Elemental and Lingering Souls and SFM on his next turn to clog the board up. I drew a land for my draw and attacked. He chumped with two tokens. He flashed back Souls and cast/equipped Jitte. I drew another land. Flashed back Grudge and attacked. He chumped. His turn drew another Lingering Souls... cast and flashbacked. At this point I was pretty sure the tide had turned but that was the end of turns.
Round 3: Affinity (2-1)
Game one I just got out raced by a quick Ravager. I was stuck on lands this game with only Trop/Volc in play. I would have had lethal if I had another red source as I had double Bolt in hand.
Sideboarding: -4 Daze, +2 Rough/Tumble, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Surgical Extraction.
Games two and three were very similar. I got off to an early delver start and Wastelanded his colored sources. I also hit Rough/Tumble both games to take out his field of Memnites and Signal Pests. Without his small guys to activate Drum and lands he couldn't get back into either game. (I was again wishing I had a second Grudge here...)
Round 4: Esper Stoneblade (2-0)
I won the die roll with a 4 after my opponent laughed at a four on 2d6 and then proceeded to roll snake eyes. I led with fetchland and passed. He followed suit. I played a Trop and a Goose. He played an USea and tried to fetch, I fetched in response finding Volc, and Stifled. He cast Preordain off of his USea. Pondered, found a Wasteland and a second Goose. I took Wasteland blew up the USea and attacked for 1. He played Island and passed. I drew Goose, cast Goose, attacked for one leaving one Volc up. He drew plain and cast SFM which I Stifled the equipment trigger. I knew my next card was a Bolt. I drew it and attacked with 6 cards in my yard... taunting my opponent to block. He obliged I bolted his face, ate the SFM, and got 3 more off of the unblocked Goose. He bricked on land for the next few turns while the Loosey Gooseies gobbled up his life total.
Sideboarding: -2 FoW, -1 Delver; -2 Daze; +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sulfur Elemental
I was on the draw and had a hand with double Wasteland, double Stifle, Fetchland, Delver and Ponder. My opponent led my immediately fetching for an Island and passing. I drew a Bolt, played fetch, and passed. My opponent played USea and Preordained. It resolved. I fetched and found a Volc EoT. I drew fetch for turn. I Wastelanded the USea, leaving Volc up for Stifle. My opponent drew and played a fetch and opted to not play into my telegraphed Stifle. I played my second fetch, cracked it finding a Trop, played my Delver, and passed. On his turn he decided he better fetch, I Stifled it leaving him on just the Island. He frantically Preordained found a second basic Island and played that. I flipped my delver on a Ponder. Began attacking and Pondered finding a Sulfur Elemental which I brought to my hand. He missed a few land drops but finally found a Plains while my Delver kept flying in for damage. He Finally StPed the Delver at 6 life. I had kind of anticipated this and hand played a fourth land with Elemental in and bolt in hand. I EoT flashed in the Elemental and then attacked for three on my turn and Bolted him for the game.
Overall I was pretty happy with the maindeck. I think I would tweak the board a bit. Take out the second Pyroblast in favor of another Elemental and a Submerge for either a second Grudge or a Grip. I ended second as I got paired down in round three, while my round two draw opponent got paired up. We both went on to 3-0-1 records. Anyway thanks for reading and let me know what you think!
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
Getting beyond the question of Stifle or Non-Stifle builds, there are several 5-card "packages" that I can see RUG utilizing to best prepare itself for an expected metagame.
Set A)
-3 Chain Lightning
-2 Thought Scour
Set B)
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Dismember
Set C)
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Flusterstorm
-1 Dismember
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Forked Bolt
Set A is for an aggressive metagame that likely has a fair amount of combo and midrange. All of the removal is "live" and can just be directed at the opponent to help race. This is very powerful in my experience and the approach can even work well against Control if you bring in 2-3 Sulfuric Vortex. Set B is great if you're expecting a lot of mirrors or Team America. This set makes it so you have a better chance of dealing with opposing Tarmogoyfs and can even answer a resolved Tombstalker. Set C is for a "wild card" or unexpected type of metagame -- it presents plenty of options to deal with a variety of decks, but doesn't really double up against any particular strategy. This is probably great for a huge tournament like an SCG Open or Grand Prix (after all, I lifted it directly from Alexander Hayne's 3rd place list from GP Strausburg).
Other packages could be constructed to deal with other problems you're running into. For example, if Elves, Maverick, and Goblins were showing up in increasing numbers, I would likely play 3 Forked Bolt and 2 Thought Scour.
I think this is a good way of looking at the deck, because this is the starting point of all modern RUG decks:
18 Lands
11 Creatures (the 4th Tarmogoyf can justifiably be cut in combo-centric metagames)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
That's 50 cards, so we are only looking at about 10 slots that can be adjusted, some of which are going to be multiples of cards already mentioned there.
Finally, would anyone be interested in a "Complete Sideboard Option Guide"? I made one for Team America, but could easily adjust and update it for RUG. Link to the BUG one here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post620813
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