Look at what Fade wrote.Originally Posted by Arsenal
An Eggs player doesn't need much time, he just needs some turns. Most other decks need more to win, so by not conceding when Eggs is comboing off and has enough draw/sunrise effects you are just hurting yourself. A good player won't mess up.
As someone who has played against Eggs in Modern (and now in Legacy), I disagree completely. It certainly doesn't take 5 minutes for Eggs to go through the combo completely, even for skilled Eggs pilots. And if I win game 1, what incentive do I have to scoop to Eggs game 2? Pilots, no matter how good, of every deck make misplays and mistakes all the time; Eggs is certainly no exception. If I'm at a Competitive REL, I win Game 1 handedly, and he's comboing off Game 2, why do I scoop? What advantage am I giving myself by scooping when I'm up a game?
You lower your chances to win in time in Game 3. I don't say "scoop when he goes off", but you have to know when the chances of him fizzling are so marginal you'd do better using the saved time. That's all.
lol @ Eggs in Legacy.
Right, once he hits a certain point in the combo stream, I'll scoop, but that point isn't hit until much later than 5 minutes into the combo, which is why I disagree with Fade that it takes about 5 minutes + demonstration of loops in order to elicit a concession. Also, yes, lol at Eggs in Legacy.
I assure you that it does not take longer than 8 minutes on an average for me to draw my entire deck and explain the loop as long as the opponent is tapped out or silenced. There are plenty of shortcuts that can be done like sac'ing all the egg at once to put them on the stack and drawing the cards all at once. You can also perform all your shuffling in one go if you have a sunrise in hand so you can fetch/ghost quarter/reshape at the same time.
After looping the eggs and showing my opponent how many draw effects I have, I can then multiply that number by the amount of sunrises I have in hand and tell them how many draws I have to draw into another sunrise. You can also reveal all the sunrises you draw to your opponent as you draw them and eventually your opponent gets the picture. I realize it's not fun for the opponent to sit there, but it's literally their choice. However, it does take longer if after casting each an every spell you have to wait for your opponent to moan or groan in order for it to resolve.
I'm a fan of the new banning, not because I hated playing against the deck (online I just gotta F6 and put on some Netflix), but because watching it at any event was just so fucking boring. It was by far my least favorite deck to watch. My new least favorite deck to watch is Sneak & Show, so maybe that'll get the ax eventually and I can finally watch some magic streams/SCG events without falling asleep.
So because people think a deck is not fun to watch, then it should be banned... This logic is spot on.
One time my opponent was playing Autism Simulator (I refuse to call it eggs)
He took a 20 min turn, and grapeshot me for 20, and forgets I have Leyline of Sanctity.
oops.
So happy to see the Sun has set with Second Sunrise.
Why would I allow you to shortcut? I have every right to have you announce and play though all of your triggers and sequencing. There's very little advantage to me to allow you to shortcut, while there's a decided advantage to you in shortcutting (less opportunity to misplay/mistake). Mistakes happen all the time, even from experience combo players. If I'm up a game, and you make none, fine, onto Game 3. If you make one or more, I can potentially win the match right there. Again, why do I want to scoop to you?
I'm using the term shortcut loosely. I am allowed to sac all my eggs in response to each other and resolve the draws. I can also reshape, then holding priority sac ghost quarters and crack fetches. I don't care if you think you are allowing me to shortcut. I stated before, I don't expect my opponent to concede. They know I have a consistent combo deck which is probably favored in turns.
Sure bro, good luck with your awesome Eggs deck in Modern.
I might have to start playing it in legacy now
Now you are just being childish...
I can't take a guy seriously saying he can draw his deck and win in 5-8 minutes with Eggs. I've watched tons of Pro Tour vids where the Eggs player combos off and it's much closer to 15-20 minutes into the combo stream and he still hasn't drawn his entire deck, but that's far enough into the stream when the opponent concedes.
There are a number of factors that go into how long it can take on the turn you combo, that's not the point I'm making. Playing in a competitive environment, of course it's going to take a bit longer to combo off as you want to make sure you do everything right. The more important factor is that the deck should not be going to time all that frequently. There are a number of players who can kill with the deck going to game 3 and not go to time. The reason for the card being banned because of idiots picking up the deck and not knowing what to do should not be a reason to ban the card. If that's the case then why in the hell isn't high tide banned in legacy?
Oh really? So when I (and most) other said that it takes double digit minutes to combo off completely (as in, proper sequencing and no concession), and you replied with this:
If the opponent makes you go through it or is clueless about what you are doing then just go through the motions (it takes ~5 minutes compared to everyone saying 15-30 minutes) and ask their opponent if they would like to concede once you show them the win con (what your opponent wants to see) and how the loop is performed.You weren't making a point that it takes you 5-8 minutes to draw your entire deck and win? Seems like you're backtracking pretty hard now.I assure you that it does not take longer than 8 minutes on an average for me to draw my entire deck and explain the loop as long as the opponent is tapped out or silenced.
And what environment other than a competitive one do you think we're talking about and what Wizards is concerned with? If we're talking about Eggs in a competitive setting (which I thought was a given and didn't needed to be pointed out), then how are you going to claim you can combo off completely in 5-8 minutes, but it'll take longer in a competitive setting? What non-competitive setting are you comboing off in 5-8 minutes? Cifka, one of the world's best Eggs players, couldn't even combo out in 5-8 minutes, with a much more realistic target of 15-20 minutes (which is about what people were talking about).
"skilled Eggs pilots" (lol) and egg zealots are just pissing into the wind at this point ... it's wotc's eternal format for standard 'graduates'
- the deck wasn't skill intensive, it required some basic ordering but never had to enter combat or interact with targeted discard or explore multiple avenues to victory (e.g. Legacy TES), it simply went off or didn't - playing some silence effects or basic bounce to salvage game two (if there was a game 2)
- the deck has humiliating on camera examples some with players leaving the table of pro level events whilst their opponent dicked about with simple sequencing
- its presence adds nothing to the modern format in the way of attracting players, imagine graduating standard guy sits down and plays against eggs, i'm sure he'd be back for more interactive fun the next week
- just a boring, binary deck, i draw hate cards and play first and win, i don't draw hate cards and lose - what a great match
Again if the banned list weren't 50 cards long it's likely this deck wouldn't even exist (Dredge might be a faster GY based combo deck? Mental Misstep might be a universal solvent for fair decks to interact whilst tapped out? Wild Nacatyl might be fast enough to kill before the fundamental turn for eggs) ... but that's where we are
It doesn't take me more than 8 minutes to show my opponent I have a win whether you believe me or not (explaining to opponent I can draw my deck and demonstrating the kill con when I know they cannot interact). I have had matches end with 30 minutes on the clock. That's including sideboard and shuffling. You get to they point where you are drawing 10+ cards per sunrise effect and you don't have to worry about maximizing percentages because you have drawn an extra sunrise.
The videos you have watched with Cifka playing he is under stress from being on camera and from playing at a Pro level event. People get nervous in these types of situations. You also notice he is playing very deliberately in order to not make a mistake and in most situations he doesn't have a sunrise effect in hand. He is thinking about ways to maximizes his percentage to draw the sunrise. He speeds up dramatically as long as he has an extra one and other than that he is playing to make sure he doesn't get warnings and such. In a PTQ environment or grand prix environment, you don't have this much stress on you to ensure you playing the deck perfectly.
Also saying is takes 15-20 minutes to combo is just absurd. If that's the case, then all of my matches should have gone to time in the months I have played the deck for the PTQ season. Taking into account just sideboard and shuffling you are down to 44 minutes left on the clock assuming you started right at 50 minutes, but we all know players can sideboard slowly or shuffle for too long. Saying that is takes 30 to 40 minutes to combo means that there is only 4-14 minutes left on the clock for the turns preceding the combo turn and for your opponent to play before the combo turn.
That is not what you initially said. You said "it does not take longer than 8 minutes on an average for me to draw my entire deck". Showing your opponent one sequence/loop, then explaining how it'll repeat, all within 8 minutes, is very different than physically repeating the loop 45-50 times in order to draw your deck within the same 8 minute timeframe. You've now given me two completely different scenarios, which one is it?
This is a pretty valid point. After Cifka's win, Eggs pretty much just dropped off the map. There was no real need to ban it...and then Seething Song and Bloodbraid Elf got banned. That's when Eggs started showing up again. It's hard to believe the re-emergence of Eggs was unrelated.
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