[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[Lejay]

If you want to bring the draw two argument you can. But you also have to realize it won't be a problem very often. It will with bad timing like drawing the second in the next 2-3 draws after using the first, in a non-combo match-up, with nothing valuable to do with it. The rest of the time you can just pitch one fow to the other.
In my list fow is also more often good at protecting the increased number of planeswalkers.

I don't think it's throwing away card advantage. Like I said the build with 4 wastelands+drs can out tempo quite often the opponent and the 4 fows are a good tool for that too. By running 0 discard main deck this version uses very well the fact that cascade isn't just card advantage, but can also sometimes add tempo value.

[VizzerdrixFTW]

To elaborate on rapid hybridization. I understand that it's not the most elegant answer. To be honest though, in a room full of mirren crusaders and other hard to deal with creatures, it is an efficient answer. If not for RH I would lose to any number of crusaders+sword of x and x

[Adryan]

I just wanted to chime in on the differences between mine and Lejay's list.


2) The discard package is my way of beating combo. Liliana of the Veil is a fine tool for Edicting people or destroying control, but in order for it to be good against combo, you really want to curve discard into it. Force of Will + Liliana will leave you with a bad Storm/Show and Tell matchup.

If you play discard, you should typically side out most, if not all of it, against other control decks. The games will go long and they are horrible topdecks.

Why not play Flusterstorm against Combo? Before everyone here calls me stupid think about how awesome Flusterstorm is (hint:very awwesome).

Shardless Agent is extremely bad versus Combo (you tap out and with bad luck you hit Tarmogoyf, Deathrite etc and you die the next turn)

So Shardless Agent out vs combo, 4 Flusterstorm in -> good combo matchup, because of discard, FoW and counters.


P.S.:

The lack of some basic swamps and islands maybe resulted in zero Top 8s at Strassbourg with this deck because the only way RUG can ever beat us is with early threats and a good mix of stifle and wasteland.

I don't like playing Tempo with this deck. Wasting RUG Delver is the dumbest thing you could ever do. Yeah sometimes you will win but in limited you also don't keep a one land hand because once upon a time it worked.

In a meta with almost no dangerous Utility Lands i would never ever play Wasteland in this deck. Wasting Storm is also a bad idea btw.

[GerryT]

Why not play Flusterstorm against Combo? Before everyone here calls me stupid think about how awesome Flusterstorm is (hint:very awwesome).

Shardless Agent is extremely bad versus Combo (you tap out and with bad luck you hit Tarmogoyf, Deathrite etc and you die the next turn)

So Shardless Agent out vs combo, 4 Flusterstorm in -> good combo matchup, because of discard, FoW and counters.


P.S.:

The lack of some basic swamps and islands maybe resulted in zero Top 8s at Strassbourg with this deck because the only way RUG can ever beat us is with early threats and a good mix of stifle and wasteland.

Flusterstorm is obviously good vs combo, but I probably wouldn't side out Shardless Agent unless you didn't have any discard. Buuuut at that point you're a BUG deck with no discard and just trying to beat them with Flusterstorm and FOW probably isn't going to work.

You can't realistically expect to play basics in a deck with Hymn to Tourach, Tarmogoyf, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Lejay's list could probably afford more than a single Swamp, but even then, where does it get you? Even if you fetch for basic Island or Swamp on turn one, if your next two lands get Stifled or Wasted, you still can't cast anything and you're going to lose anyway. Unless you're U/W Control with 6-9 basics, that strategy isn't going to work vs RUG. Mono non-basics is a better bet.

[Darkness]

Flusterstorm is obviously good vs combo, but I probably wouldn't side out Shardless Agent unless you didn't have any discard. Buuuut at that point you're a BUG deck with no discard and just trying to beat them with Flusterstorm and FOW probably isn't going to work.

You can't realistically expect to play basics in a deck with Hymn to Tourach, Tarmogoyf, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Lejay's list could probably afford more than a single Swamp, but even then, where does it get you? Even if you fetch for basic Island or Swamp on turn one, if your next two lands get Stifled or Wasted, you still can't cast anything and you're going to lose anyway. Unless you're U/W Control with 6-9 basics, that strategy isn't going to work vs RUG. Mono non-basics is a better bet.

I agree. Part of playing the Black shell is using your discard to proactively stop your opponent, find a threat, and then hold up counter magic while you clock your opponent. I can tell you as a TES player that more often then not counter magic is not enough to stop someone from going off. Between cards like Duress, Silence, Cabal Therapy, Force of Will, Misdirection, Spell Pierce and Daze combo players pact as much hate as you do. Discard immediately prevents your opponent from going off, and dig for protection, and puts them back into digging for the combo assembly. This slows them down in turn allowing you a gap to start winning and finding counter magic for when they do find their combo.

[Razorwynd]

I know this goes back to the early days of the deck when Brian Demars was first talking about it, but has anyone tested some form of counterbalance top (as opposed to discard) in the deck to combat non Sneak and Show combo decks? Top seems reasonable to set up cascades and brainstorm can be used to great affect with counterbalance.

My instinct is that it might just be too reactive and clunky instead of proactive in the combo matchups. And it only really shines against RUG and non-Sneak and Show combo.

Thoughts.

[marumari]

Amidst all the complaints about how bad it is to topdeck or cascade into discard late game, has anybody tried Brain Pry at all in their builds? Maybe it's just too far out into left field, but it's the only discard spell (AFAIK) that you can cascade into and will yet never be a completely dead card. It's obviously much better in the versions that run a lot of Thoughtseizes, since it is basically half of a Cabal Therapy strapped to a cantrip.

[phazonmutant]

I know this goes back to the early days of the deck when Brian Demars was first talking about it, but has anyone tested some form of counterbalance top (as opposed to discard) in the deck to combat non Sneak and Show combo decks? Top seems reasonable to set up cascades and brainstorm can be used to great affect with counterbalance.

My instinct is that it might just be too reactive and clunky instead of proactive in the combo matchups. And it only really shines against RUG and non-Sneak and Show combo.

Thoughts.

It's not exactly analogous, but I top8'd a local 20-man tournament with a 4c CB Top list, report here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post717065
I think the same problems I found with that deck would apply to BUG - Vision + CB is dissynergy, you don't really have mana to Top, and you end the game with inf cards in hand but nothing in play.

Also, what would you cut? I played DeMars's decklist at a tournament right after he wrote it and it was awful. DRS added a lot and it's hard to fit DRS and CB-Top.

To elaborate on rapid hybridization. I understand that it's not the most elegant answer. To be honest though, in a room full of mirren crusaders and other hard to deal with creatures, it is an efficient answer. If not for RH I would lose to any number of crusaders+sword of x and x

I'm honestly not sure how this deck has much of a shot against W/x Thalia and Mirran Crusader decks. If that's what's infesting your meta, I certainly would not choose to play this deck. So, if you're winning on the back of an objectively terrible spell, all that tells me is that your meta isn't diverse enough to punish your sideboarding choice. Which is what you asked about in the first place. So yes, I still defend looking to proven sideboard in an open meta for advice on how to build yours for an open meta.

[1rakete]

I'm honestly not sure how this deck has much of a shot against W/x Thalia and Mirran Crusader decks. If that's what's infesting your meta, I certainly would not choose to play this deck. So, if you're winning on the back of an objectively terrible spell, all that tells me is that your meta isn't diverse enough to punish your sideboarding choice. Which is what you asked about in the first place. So yes, I still defend looking to proven sideboard in an open meta for advice on how to build yours for an open meta.

This deck actually shines in creature-heavy metas. Just adapt the build a bit. Play more removal, 4 Liliana, no discard, less Jace, probably no Force and consider some amount of Jitte maindeck. But you are right: rapid hybridization is obviously just a bad card, there are lots of better choices.

I have a question of you all concerning Jace TMS:

I played 6-2-1 in Straßbourg and the best thing Jace TMS did was getting pitched into Force. My matchups where UR Delver, Goblins, Jund, U/W Rest in Peace combo, Burn, MUD, UBW Stoneforge, Tin Fins and UWR Tempo. He got boarded out all matches except for U/W, MUD and UBW Stoneforge. When he did something, it was always something like win-more.

If you reconsider your last games with the deck: What experiences with Jace TMS did you do?

[Esper3k]

It's not exactly analogous, but I top8'd a local 20-man tournament with a 4c CB Top list, report here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post717065
I think the same problems I found with that deck would apply to BUG - Vision + CB is dissynergy, you don't really have mana to Top, and you end the game with inf cards in hand but nothing in play.

Also, what would you cut? I played DeMars's decklist at a tournament right after he wrote it and it was awful. DRS added a lot and it's hard to fit DRS and CB-Top.




I'm honestly not sure how this deck has much of a shot against W/x Thalia and Mirran Crusader decks. If that's what's infesting your meta, I certainly would not choose to play this deck. So, if you're winning on the back of an objectively terrible spell, all that tells me is that your meta isn't diverse enough to punish your sideboarding choice. Which is what you asked about in the first place. So yes, I still defend looking to proven sideboard in an open meta for advice on how to build yours for an open meta.

Yeah, if you're having problems with creatures, this BUG actually has an amazing amount of answers like Pernicious Deed, Virtue's Ruin, Engineered Plague, Dread of Night, or even just more pinpoint removal if you want.

[baptist]

I just wanted to chime in on the differences between mine and Lejay's list.

1) Baleful Strix is good vs other Goyf decks (and can block Emrakul/Griselbrand if they are dead on board the next turn; not always relevant, but it won me a game in Top 8 of the Invitational). They are cuttable depending on what you expect to see.

2) The discard package is my way of beating combo. Liliana of the Veil is a fine tool for Edicting people or destroying control, but in order for it to be good against combo, you really want to curve discard into it. Force of Will + Liliana will leave you with a bad Storm/Show and Tell matchup.

If you play discard, you should typically side out most, if not all of it, against other control decks. The games will go long and they are horrible topdecks.

3) Maelstrom Pulse is the answer to Esper Stoneblade and various other problems you'll face. Europeans don't need to worry about that too much, but on the Open Series, there is a lot of it. Being able to handle Batterskull, Lingering Souls, and Jace with one card is the reason I won the Invitational.

4) Four Wastelands aren't necessary, no matter what version you're playing. Your lands in play are more valuable than theirs. The only reason I play any is to kill problematic lands like Grove of the Burnwillows, Maze of Ith, Creeping Tar Pit, etc. Playing your own Tar Pits makes your mana base better and gives you a solid threat against other control decks. It's also a very good way to pressure planeswalkers.

5) Nihil Spellbomb is very good. I side it in against the obvious Dredge, etc decks but it's also good against Punishing Fire, Snapcaster Mage, and Nimble Mongoose. Those are probably the best ways for other decks to fight you and Nihil is a universal answer. It's far better than something like Leyline of the Void because it also cantrips so you're not losing value against other control decks.

6) Phyrexian Revoker is very good against Sneak and Show. That's basically the only thing I'd want to incorporate from Lejay's list (unless the metagame is suddenly devoid of combo). It's also another card that, like Pulse, lets you beat random strategies.

7) I like Chill. There are random decks out there like Goblins, Burn, anything with Punishing Fire, Sneak and Show with Blood Moon and/or REB sideboard, Belcher, some versions of Storm, etc that have a difficult time dealing with Chill. It's one card that deals with a lot of the randomness that exists in Legacy, so I wouldn't play without it.

1)
In a meta with major players: RUG, ANT, Sneaky Show, Esper and BUG would you consider playing the third or fourth copy of Baleful Strix in the sb?


5)
I can confirm that Nihil Spellbomb was one of my best sb slots for the GP Straatsburg. I board it against RUG, Esper, ANT and Punishing Jund.


6)
What does this mean in regard to your actual sb? Do you still play Sower of Temptation for the Sneaky Show matchup or would you replace these with Phyrexian Revoker.

Would you consider cutting the 2 Thoughtseize md, for the fourth Hymn to Tourach and the fourth Force of Will?

My actual sb is:
3 Thoughtseize (playset FOW and Hymn to Tourach md)
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstorm Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Baleful Strix
1 Sower of Temptation

My main concern is fixing the Sneaky Show matchup, considering that I need to win through a Leyline of Sanctity. Suggestions?

[Kl'rt]

What I'm getting from this thread is that this deck performs very well against fair decks at the cost of being a little weaker against combo. Isn't Jund already the best deck for doing this? What are the reasons for playing this deck over Jund?

On another note, how is this deck's matchup vs Jund? On paper, I would guess it has a hard time dealing with Punishing Fire. Wins goyf wars and kills every other creature in this deck. Anyone have experience with this?

[Esper3k]

What I'm getting from this thread is that this deck performs very well against fair decks at the cost of being a little weaker against combo. Isn't Jund already the best deck for doing this? What are the reasons for playing this deck over Jund?

On another note, how is this deck's matchup vs Jund? On paper, I would guess it has a hard time dealing with Punishing Fire. Wins goyf wars and kills every other creature in this deck. Anyone have experience with this?

It has a better matchup against combo than Jund does which is the reason to play Shardless BUG. While it may have a weaker combo matchup than other BUG lists, you're still playing a deck that runs FoW and hand disruption against combo.

I haven't played much against Pfires, but my thought would be that it's rough but between your yard hate and Wastelands, you should be able to deal with it postboard.

[planarvoid]

Against jund the key is to resolve ASAP ancestral vision.

I don't feel "that" bad playin' against jund, I guess it's 50-50, shardless agent and vision makes the game.

[Sansian]

Yea, I find that when I win pre-board against p.jund it tends to be when I'm able to bury them in cards between Hymn and Ancestral.

[baptist]

Against jund the key is to resolve ASAP ancestral vision.

I don't feel "that" bad playin' against jund, I guess it's 50-50, shardless agent and vision makes the game.

Presb
Ancestral Vision, Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay are the cards you want.

Postsb
Do they have Pyroblast for your Ancestral Vision or Jace?

Overall
The most common way to loose is an unanswered Dark Confidant.

[Julian23]

Punishing Fire straight out shuts this deck down no matter how many cards you draw with Ancestral Visions. Therefore, preboard I try to kill them ASAP with Agents cascading into Goyfs and just closing out the game ASAP.

Postboard, I used Surgical Extraction to successfully get rid of Punishing Fire. Once you've managed to done that, the matchup becomes so much easier. Still a fair fight from both sides but no more inevitability for them...

That being said, you can't really run Surgical in a deck that's built on cascade. Maybe Spellbomb is still enough to shut them down for a while despite it being much easier played around by Jund.

[Lejay]

Or you could run leyline if the void and 4 wasteland, keeping them for groves.

[zerzab11]

Lejay, could you please share your current list, do you still think 2 Leyline is the best GY hate?

How did your fellow players perform with this deck at the GP?

[baptist]

Lejay, could you please share your current list, do you still think 2 Leyline is the best GY hate?

How did your fellow players perform with this deck at the GP?

I finished 37th, going 8-1 day 1 and 4-3 day 2. Lost to ANT, Sneaky Show, Esperblade and Deathblade. Won against 2x Esper, BUG control, Merfolks, 2x RUG, Sneaky Show, TES, ANT, Punishing Jund, 3x?