Miracle Control

[drocker23]

here is the list i have built currently

4 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
1 venser, shaper savant
4 swords to plowshares
2 vendilion clique
1 supreme verdict
3 terminus
2 snapcaster mage
3 counterbalance
3 spell pierce
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 entreat the angels
2 counterspell

2 arid mesa
3 tundra
2 scalding tarn
5 island
1 volcanic island
4 flooded strand
1 karakas
2 plains
2 misty rainforest

so how does this deck list look? what changes would you suggest?

[sauce]

here is the list i have built currently

4 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
1 venser, shaper savant
4 swords to plowshares
2 vendilion clique
1 supreme verdict
3 terminus
2 snapcaster mage
3 counterbalance
3 spell pierce
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 entreat the angels
2 counterspell

2 arid mesa
3 tundra
2 scalding tarn
5 island
1 volcanic island
4 flooded strand
1 karakas
2 plains
2 misty rainforest

so how does this deck list look? what changes would you suggest?

definitely -1 tundra +1 mystic gate

[Cipher]

Do you guys seriously think the red splash is superior to black, even though Thoughtseize would be good in the BGx matches? Has anyone tried Lingering Souls in Miracles, yet? Perhaps 3 copies in the board would take the place of the Sulfur Elemental (that's what it's there for, right?) and another card and come in over Force of Will, post board. That way the blue card count doesn't matter?

If this BGx matchup is holding back the entire archetype, Maybe going somewhat soft against other Control and Combo decks is worth it. If people even consider Thoughtseize softer than REB.

[alphastryk]

Do you guys seriously think the red splash is superior to black, even though Thoughtseize would be good in the BGx matches? Has anyone tried Lingering Souls in Miracles, yet? Perhaps 3 copies in the board would take the place of the Sulfur Elemental (that's what it's there for, right?) and another card and come in over Force of Will, post board. That way the blue card count doesn't matter?

If this BGx matchup is holding back the entire archetype, Maybe going somewhat soft against other Control and Combo decks is worth it. If people even consider Thoughtseize softer than REB.

Yes, red is absolutely better. It is not particularly close.

Lingering Souls is very low-impact and the 1/1s are not good without equipment to carry. How would it replace Sulfur Elemental? Elemental kills Mother of Runes, Souls Tokens, Thalia, etc. It also is an uncounterable flash threat to attack Jaces or a blocker that can trade with Geist.

I don't understand what the reference to blue count is about? Against BGx FoW is usually pretty bad so we don't want it or don't want 4 copies, so blue count isn't a huge concern. Against Stoneblade, REB is usually better, and you don't really want to be throwing away two of your cards to answer one of theirs.

How would Thoughtseize help with BGx exactly?

[Jayman]

Do you guys seriously think the red splash is superior to black, even though Thoughtseize would be good in the BGx matches? Has anyone tried Lingering Souls in Miracles, yet? Perhaps 3 copies in the board would take the place of the Sulfur Elemental (that's what it's there for, right?) and another card and come in over Force of Will, post board. That way the blue card count doesn't matter?

If this BGx matchup is holding back the entire archetype, Maybe going somewhat soft against other Control and Combo decks is worth it. If people even consider Thoughtseize softer than REB.

B/Gx actually as bad as most of us make it seem. You pretty much have too blow them out and not care about card advantage. For those matchups spell Pierces misdirections go a long way towards keeping you safe until a big entreat, blood moon or moat blows them out. Black is more suited to an aggro control shell. Miracles is a defensive deck and REB just fits the bill much better since it timewalks opponents and is a way out of something that already got into play unlike discard.

[drocker23]

Do you guys seriously think the red splash is superior to black, even though Thoughtseize would be good in the BGx matches? Has anyone tried Lingering Souls in Miracles, yet? Perhaps 3 copies in the board would take the place of the Sulfur Elemental (that's what it's there for, right?) and another card and come in over Force of Will, post board. That way the blue card count doesn't matter?

If this BGx matchup is holding back the entire archetype, Maybe going somewhat soft against other Control and Combo decks is worth it. If people even consider Thoughtseize softer than REB.

i think if you're gonna play Lingering Souls and Thoughtseize then you should probably just play Esper Stoneblade.

[Dzra]

Lingering Souls is very low-impact and the 1/1s are not good without equipment to carry.

Basically this. I've tried UWb Miracles and Lingering Souls was basically a wall. Our deck doesn't have the capability to turn aggressive with them and early in the game it is downright embarrassing against Deathrite. Not to mention that tapping 3 or 5 mana during our main phase isn't usually the way to go. Vindicate was really the only good part about the splash.

[Einherjer]

Basically this. I've tried UWb Miracles and Lingering Souls was basically a wall. Our deck doesn't have the capability to turn aggressive with them and early in the game it is downright embarrassing against Deathrite. Not to mention that tapping 3 or 5 mana during our main phase isn't usually the way to go. Vindicate was really the only good part about the splash.

Yup I've been testing this version too quite some time ago. It was called E-Sperminator by me and my friends. While it proved to have a better BGx-MU this version was just worse than Miracles AND worse than Esperblade. Fun, but not good enough.

Greetings

[Cipher]

Yes, red is absolutely better. It is not particularly close.

Lingering Souls is very low-impact and the 1/1s are not good without equipment to carry. How would it replace Sulfur Elemental? Elemental kills Mother of Runes, Souls Tokens, Thalia, etc. It also is an uncounterable flash threat to attack Jaces or a blocker that can trade with Geist.

I don't understand what the reference to blue count is about? Against BGx FoW is usually pretty bad so we don't want it or don't want 4 copies, so blue count isn't a huge concern. Against Stoneblade, REB is usually better, and you don't really want to be throwing away two of your cards to answer one of theirs.

How would Thoughtseize help with BGx exactly?

I still am working on the final cards for my list, so I haven't got to run the deck yet, just watched it played a lot. I've been watching the thread and I hadn't seen anyone even mention any black cards except vindicate, so I thought I'd ask. I'll take all of your word for it.

The blue count comment was me preempting someone saying "That lowers your Force of Will count". If you play the card in the sideboard then it can come in where Force comes out and avoid the conflict. I've never used Sulfur Elemental in any of my Legacy decks, so I can't speak on how good a card it is, but I still find it dubious that it would actually be better than Lingering Souls. I suppose it doesn't really matter, though, and people here said they tried it, so I'll leave it alone. Lingering Souls is just a very good card against Liliana and even Jace in my mind.

How could Thoughtseize not help with anything? Thoughtseize is definitely worse on Tempo, as someone pointed out, but it's power level is way higher than a situational counterspell, and you can't even bring in the REBs against GBx. With Jund having a few Key cards that break open the matchup, I figured that stripping Liliana or Abrupt decay would be useful. Hopefully better than the 2 cards you would be leaving in, instead.

Perhaps Thoughtseize isn't the turn 1 of Champions in this deck because Top is.

[Jayman]

Thoughtseize is powerful do not get us wrong. Itis just not a card suited to this kind of deck. The cards you use need to be defensive. Look at it this way yes you can strip a card away from your opponents hand but you do not stall out a turn which means you have less time to stabilize or reach a stage in the game where every play you make will just be superior to theirs such as an entreat for 3 or more or a jace on an empty board. Thoughtseize is better for decks that want to play cheap efficient that excel while your opponent has low resources. ( think Tarmogoyf and Stoneforge Mystic). Basically everything that thoughtseize does Spell Pierce and Swords to Plowshares does better and REB adds more of the same. Also adding discard to stop a removal spell is just silly adrupt decay won't kill you though it is a problem since traditionally the way uw beats bgx decks is by landing counterbalance but what is really killing you is the constant pressure from discard cheap threats and card advantage. These bgx devks have always been favored except counterbalance just stopped them cold once it hit play. Now we just need to either find other ways to lock yhem out for their card advantage will not matter or just kill them.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

This is the list I've been testing with. The sideboard is a bit of mess right now but it's been running really well for me. I'm surprised more people aren't running Elspeth, she's great on a stalled board or even in a losing board. I'm generally happy whenever I see her even if it's to just chump goyf a few times it helps me stabilize. The one of Humility main has been really good too, a lot of decks I've been playing just get slowed down too much and any Terminus after Humility is generally game.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [SHM] Mystic Gate
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ME] Plains (2)
5 [ST] Island (1)
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [R] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [TE] Humility
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AVR] Terminus
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [RTR] Supreme Verdict
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [R] Disenchant
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [M10] Lightning Bolt
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

[drocker23]

This is the list I've been testing with. The sideboard is a bit of mess right now but it's been running really well for me. I'm surprised more people aren't running Elspeth, she's great on a stalled board or even in a losing board. I'm generally happy whenever I see her even if it's to just chump goyf a few times it helps me stabilize. The one of Humility main has been really good too, a lot of decks I've been playing just get slowed down too much and any Terminus after Humility is generally game.

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [SHM] Mystic Gate
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [ME] Plains (2)
5 [ST] Island (1)
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [R] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [TE] Humility
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AVR] Terminus
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
1 [RTR] Supreme Verdict
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [R] Disenchant
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [M10] Lightning Bolt
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

i personally don't like Humilty as a mainboard option without having a way to tutor for it. also i hate the idea of turning all my 4/4 flying angels into 1/1 dorks. i think moat would serve a better purpose main as it is more of a blowout card than humility is. you said terminus+humility means game. well that pretty much means that the terminus was game because we can very certainly die to a horde of 1/1's.

Starcity just wrote an article on this deck basically retuning it, taking out the majority of the creature hate like terminus and supreme verdict and replaced them with tithe and miser one of's including moat, detention sphere, and engineered explosives. i think the idea might have some merit but it plays so desperately on the back of entreat the angels simply being stronger than whatever creatures they have in play. i don't think we should toss terminus to the sideboard (although look at his sideboard. it looks pretty well thought out and solid). but there are no ways to tutor for his 1 of's and i really don't like that in this style of deck, nor do i like packing my deck so full of options and tutor targets that it doesn't give you too much meat to fall back on since none of our cards are blowout cards like they used to be. everyone refers to terminus beating maverick. maverick did die to terminus pretty much, but who was been playing maverick lately? pretty much no one.

miracles would still be just fine if it wasn't for abrupt decay. seriously a card that powerful in legacy even without the first sentence....and yet they still decided to say 'it can't be countered by spells and abilities' wtf were they thinking? a pseudo-vindicate for 2 mana in GB colours seemed perfectly acceptable. and now it's really hard to play a really good control deck without playing BUG. shardless bug looks so good it's not even funny. even u/w stoneblade is dead. it's esperblade all the way. maybe miracles should just be given up on.

[drocker23]

can someone please explain to me what the purpose is of venser in the deck? is he really that good or is he just there to drop off of show n tell?

[Zombie]

He only does everything and can be reused with Karakas, whether it's as Remand, chump or bounce for troublesome things.

[Einherjer]

Venser is great at stalling. Playing him to bounce flipped Delvers buys a lot of time. Playing him to save your Counterbalance from Decay is fine too. I've even bounced my own Jace already. Once you got Karakas + Venser + a bunch of lands you can like play, bounce, and play again, hit for 2 and stuff like that....

On Carstens List which can be found here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...my-Of-God.html


I am really skeptical that this attempt can work well. He and Levy are both playing a fucking low amount of lands. While the one plays additional cantrips Carsten features Tithe, which is a great card I didn't have on the radar to be honest. But playing with 3 Swords 1 EE and 1 Sphere can't be right for a controldeck. A friend of mine once said something along this lines:"Angels? Ah great card, still dies to Flusterstorm!" - and this is just right. Angels for 10? Well I'll just Brainstorm/Bolt/whatever in response and Flusterstorm that. Nice ressources. In short: I don't think that the comboattempt can really work - Engineered Explosives is still card too! But nonetheless I will give this list a try simply due to him being a good deckbuilder, even though I think that this "change" is definitely no clear and obvious "improvement". What are you thoughts on this attempt?


Greetings

[drocker23]

Venser is great at stalling. Playing him to bounce flipped Delvers buys a lot of time. Playing him to save your Counterbalance from Decay is fine too. I've even bounced my own Jace already. Once you got Karakas + Venser + a bunch of lands you can like play, bounce, and play again, hit for 2 and stuff like that....

On Carstens List which can be found here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...my-Of-God.html


I am really skeptical that this attempt can work well. He and Levy are both playing a fucking low amount of lands. While the one plays additional cantrips Carsten features Tithe, which is a great card I didn't have on the radar to be honest. But playing with 3 Swords 1 EE and 1 Sphere can't be right for a controldeck. A friend of mine once said something along this lines:"Angels? Ah great card, still dies to Flusterstorm!" - and this is just right. Angels for 10? Well I'll just Brainstorm/Bolt/whatever in response and Flusterstorm that. Nice ressources. In short: I don't think that the comboattempt can really work - Engineered Explosives is still card too! But nonetheless I will give this list a try simply due to him being a good deckbuilder, even though I think that this "change" is definitely no clear and obvious "improvement". What are you thoughts on this attempt?


Greetings

my thoughts after reading his article is based on his reasoning for his card choices i'd rather be playing thopter foundry/sword of the meek with e tutors and a few bullets. but i don't think that version is any good anymore because it really relied on landing an ensnaring bridge and dumping your hand until you could piece thopters together. i think the entreats in his list instead of being a win condition, is trying to be used as both aspects of ensnaring bridge and thopter foundry and i just flat out think it's not good. 61 card with only 20 lands? no thanks.

[Jayman]

my thoughts after reading his article is based on his reasoning for his card choices i'd rather be playing thopter foundry/sword of the meek with e tutors and a few bullets. but i don't think that version is any good anymore because it really relied on landing an ensnaring bridge and dumping your hand until you could piece thopters together. i think the entreats in his list instead of being a win condition, is trying to be used as both aspects of ensnaring bridge and thopter foundry and i just flat out think it's not good. 61 card with only 20 lands? no thanks.

His deck is fine. It is a good call for the current state of legacy where the decks played do not overextend into terminus. I do agree that a couple of tutors are needed to search out the Moat but he is right in saying that all the fair decks just die to Entreat. Killing creatures is not very important anymore and if you are going to lose might as well lose the fast game 1's and crush them the next 2 games. It is a good idea to playtest the only card I am skepticle on is Tithe there might be something more powerful in my opinion

[Kaslan]

In the Venser, Clique and Snap build why no one is running 1 Riptide Laboratory in conjunction with Karakas ?

[Poron]

Riptide gives 1 instead of U or W and its ability is very expensive.

To me, it's more than enough 2 Karakas. Snapcaster Mage is the weakest piece of the deck imho and one of the first thing I side out

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
today i played a small turney (15 people) and went 4:1 with UWr Miracle. If someone is interested in the decklist or something you can see it here:
http://www.mtgdecks.net/events/view/10491

My Games were:

1. Round: Bye (2:0^^)
2. Round: Manaless Dredge (Lost G1 without gravehate and stomped him down G2 & G3 with Extraction+RIP+Pierce 2:1)
3. Round: Tin Fins (Crushed him 2:0 with Snare, Pierce, Force and a Entreat for 5 eot)
4. Round: BGW NicFit (Won 1:0 after a very very long G1 but finally won with Elspeth)
5. Round: Traditional Dredge (with Lands) lost 0:2 because i had no GY hate and he played around terminus+Swords very well (good opponent)

After playing with 4 CB and 3 Entreat (which felt a bit too cluncy) I decided a new way which is a bit faster in the early Games (3 Spell Pierce, 3 Spell Snare) and I was very happy with it today. I think the CB in the SB is quiet ok because you have enough counters in the main anyway.

EDIT: I had no Vendilion Clique´s so I replaced them with 1 Snappy and 1 Elspeth in the main...Sold them at GP Strassbourg :-(

Greetings from Germany