I thought Snapcaster was very good in the past. It is nice to have more 2-drops for Counterbalance, and they are good against combo decks. The problem is RIP and Deathrite Shaman shutting them down. Against Jund and BUG you have to assume they won't be able to do anything after boarding.
If you are used to playing with Snapcasters then keeping them in is probably wise. But there are definitely options. Good luck man. I wish I had an SCG event in my area this weekend (or really anytime before October...sigh).
don't forget. snapcaster can flash down in response to a deathrite activation. so if they are fearing snapcaster that means they aren't using their deathrite shaman which means i'm in pretty good shape. there are plenty of matchups where snapcaster is still good, and in the worst case scenario he is a flash in blocker. i am currently considering taking out the celestial purges and running 1pithing needle and 1 engineered explosives instead because they both deal with liliana but in a different way, and they work better with my tutor board. although, celestial purge is an instant which works well with snapcaster and i don't have to worry about it dying to abrupt decay. decisions, decisions, decisions!!Originally Posted by oarsman
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/49964
Any thoughts on Raphael Levy's deck from Strasbourg? I know European players are big on Elspeth, but 4x Ponder? I imagine at least the Elspeth maindeck are clutch against GBx. Makes me wonder why people are using Venser to tackle the matchup.
I've ran 4x Brainstorm and 3x Ponder in Tempo decks, but it seems interesting to push it in a Control shell. It sort of looks to me like he just recently cut Stoneforge from this list and that's why it looks off.
Hello,
So I have an "important" tournament coming up this weekend. I've been playing Miracles on and off (mostly on, though) for quite a long time now; specifically the version running flash creatures. However, due to some underwhelming (not devastating, but still...) I'm considering the switch to the RIP Helm version. However, I can't help but wonder whether the combo makes it more clunky. RIP is awesome in many matchups, but flash creatures have a much wider degree of usefulness.
I am more comfortable playing flash dudes, have much more games under my belt, but I admire how you can just go E.Tutor => bullet and shut some decks down; and the Oops I win factor is always appreciated.
Anyhow, these are the lists I'm considering, any tips are appreciated:
//NAME: UW Sanctuary Control
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Terminus
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
6 Snow-covered Island
2 Snow-covered Plains
3 Tundra
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Venser, Shaper Savant
Note: I REALLY like the sideboard; but I think the MD is a bit light on winning conditions, and I'd HATE to go to time (I misplay more when spectators are around).
Regular Miracles:
3 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Karakas
5 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Misdirection
Sideboard
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 ???
For the last 2 cards I'm considering Flusterstorm, the 4th Counterbalance, a 2nd Misdiretion, Celestial Purge, a 2nd Engineered Explosives.
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
it also cacks sulfuric vortex and tezzeret (less common but can be problematic)
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a couple things i would like to address here.
1) play whichever version you are more comfortable with. this will decrease the chances of you making mistakes
2) personally, i feel that the flashy dude version is better because abrupt decay hurts the RIP/Helm version so bad.
3) why Timely Reinforcements and while i am at it, why Wurmcoil Engine?
4) why are people playing EE over Supreme Verdict in the main now?
5) i feel like E. Tutor out of the board is perfectly acceptable. i would reconsider a couple of your board choices and try out the E. Tutor in the sideboard and see how you like it.
While there's a lot of merit to "playing what you know," I really don't see there being so much difference between RIP Miracles and straight Miracles that you would have any trouble adjusting. I'm not sure why drocker thinks that RIP is bad against Abrupt Decay decks. Abrupt Decay decks, without fail, are running Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman. Both are worse than awful with RIP on the field. Even if they Abrupt Decay your RIP, you've nuked their GY for at least a few turns. It's not like Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage also.
As far as your actual build goes, I would cut the second Counterspell and the second Energy Field. Many RIP builds run some combination of 2-3 Vendillion Cliques and Venser. I'd use those two new slots for that. That (plus cutting the Wurmcoil and Timely Reinforcements) opens up several slots in your SB for things like Celestial Purge, REB, Pithing Needle, etc.
As far as playing the RIP version, most of the time you'll be Enlightened Tutoring for a Top. Next will probably be Tutoring for a combo piece. Occasionally you'll Tutor for a Counterbalance in say the mirror or against combo, and sometimes you'll Tutor to set up an important Counterbalance hit. Other than that, it plays almost exactly like normal Miracles. You just have more ways to screw graveyard-reliant creatures.
i know this because i have tested with the RIP/Helm version against abrupt decay decks over and over and over. also, most of your comments about how you are expected to use enlightened tutor properly, are wrong. so we'll just disregard that part of your comment.
now what this guy did say about rest in peace hosing graveyard based creatures is true. here's what he didn't tell you:
1) when playing against bug, abrupt decay hurts even more because not only does it blow up your cards intended to stall the board, they have their own counterspells too. which not only allows them to foil your cards you are using to try and stall, but also helps guarantee their threats actually hit play. against non-blue decks that run abrupt decay, it's a lot easier to control the board and land your stall tactic cards because you can save your counters for threats that are tough to deal with like liliana's and such. what a major issue is in this matchup is the fact that your counterspells don't buy you the kind of time you need to, because instead of countering a few things to make the gap between you and your opponent bigger, you are forced to fight over key spells which puts you at an even greater disadvantage mainly because of their hand hate and also since they are the proactive beatdown deck against you. they simply have more threats against you than you have against them. and that is why they win. because they have an uncounterable answer to your 'stall the board' tactics.
2) the RIP version although very interesting, is also not as good mostly due to a plethora of hand hate in the format. while hymns and thoughtseizes are tearing your hand apart, you're drawing less business spells off the top of your library because of the spots required to play the helm combo. in order to fit this combo into your deck you have to cut business cards like removal, creatures, and counters to implement the strategy thusly making not only your consistancy weaker but also you're going to be drawing more copies of spells like rest in peace or weak cards like detention sphere in order to try and pull you out of a rut. these cards are not capable of that. flash blockers can sometimes make trades or allow you to replay key spells out of your graveyard to start swinging the game back into your favor. also our creatures can provide a quick clock once their hand is finally empty. a clock that is generally faster than jace or rip/helm.
3) as diverse as decks like bug, jund, and junk are with their spells and their spell types, it is not difficult for them to make tarmogoyf at least a 3/4 again after abrupt decaying a rest in peace. what we want to do against these decks are to play fewer cards that are affected by abrupt decay (yes your creatures are vulnerable too, but at least they all have come into play effects that will serve their purpose before going to the graveyard) and play more spells like spell pierce and counterspell that we can trade with their hand hate spells so that we can protect our hands better. by also running more copies of less spells, we keep the deck more consistant which is important vs. hand hating decks instead of trying to win the game off a bunch of random 1 of's. enlightened tutor is card disadvantage also which is important to think about vs those kind of decks also.
seen that someone is taking the RiPHelm rout, you may want to consider this list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ntrol-RiP_Helm
it solves many problems of the deck using Sterling Grove (Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, Qasali Pridemage, anything)
The only "common" card we fear is Pernicious Deed (2-3 Pithing Needle and 3 Stifle in the 75 + many counters)
If should someone take the enchantments route, I ask you to consider (and advice me about) that list.
Thank you
p.s. the little green splash gives us Carpet of Flowers and Determined in SB.
Eventually even a couple of Krosan Grips for opposing CounterTops
Why don't you... enlighten... me on how I should be using E Tutor then? har har But really, what I've said strikes me as fairly basic and I'm curious what you think I've said wrongly.
The latest (and probably best) version of BUG right now is Shardless, which tends to run 3 FoW main deck. They will do everything in their power not to have to cast them, and will likely be the first cards to board out against us.
This is true.
Counterbalance decks are used to being the control deck. Normally, Counterbalance creates such a disparity in card advantage that the longer the game goes with Counterbalance/Top on the field, the more in the driver's seat we are. Abrupt Decay doesn't allow that. The key to GBx matchups is essentially to kill them before their worse but more reliable card advantage overtakes us.
A big Entreat the Angels at the end of their turn is the best way to do this. RIP/Helm is also a good way to go about this. RIP isn't just a 'stall the board' tactic. It stalls the board yes, but if left on the field for too long; it will just win you the game out of nowhere.
In most BUG verses Miracles games, BUG isn't the beatdown and if you've let them assume the beatdown by taking the defensive route then you've essentially rolled over on your back. Just because they have more creatures at their disposal doesn't mean we are shooting for the long game.
One of the better counters for hand disruption is Sensei's Divining Top. In RIP/Helm, you are running a 2 more virtual copies. And I don't know about you, but if everyone is in topdeck mode, I would rather be the one playing the deck that has "I win the game now" as one of my topdecks.
Without RIP/Helm, your options are basically hope to race them with Clique, find an Entreat, or stick a Counterbalance long enough for Jace to do some work.
Unless you have a Leyline of Sanctity sitting in play, you had best resign yourself to not having too much of a hand against Hymn decks. Not having a hand, you had best hope that you have a Top and/or a way to close the game very quickly. Enlightened Tutor might be card disadvantage, but it is amazingly resilient to discard (and most likely whatever you are tutoring for will either win you the game or work towards negating the card you lost).
Now all of this said, I don't think that it is clearcut that RIP is necessarily better against GBx decks than normal Miracles. There are definitely advantages to both. My point is that it is silly and hasty to dismiss it as being bad simply because Rest in Peace is one of 100 legacy staples that can be targeted by Abrupt Decay.
if Abrupt Decay is such a problem and you don't want to splash green, why don't you play more Misdirections?
BUG is tough for both versions of the deck. I think the key is defending your hand to make enough land drops for Things such as Entreat, Moat, Humility, Elspeth, or a miser Blood moon when they tapout. Misdirection and spell pierce do a lot of work early game to keep you from falling behind or if you choose to go the leyline turn zero and forget about it route you can safe your counters for bombs.
this is true ^^
play more 4 drops like elspeth which do not care about abrupt decay. while they are cascading into ancestrals, you're just trying to find rip/helm and/or entreats.
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may be I like too much that deck of mine but, again, a turn 0 Leyline of Sactity + a Sterling Grove just seal the match against BUG. That's our worst matchup to me btw
1) Fair enough.
3) I expect quite a lot of Burn, and last time I went on tilt due to Burn knocking me out of Top 8 contention (I was not playing Miracles); hence Timely seems useful (it also has utility against RUG, Jund, Zoo, etc). Wurmcoil is a bullet to BGx decks, specially Jund, since going E. Tutor => Wurmcoil puts a huge threat on the board that they must x for 1 themselves to get rid off.
4) I do not feel secure without the ability to wipe out random artifacts or enchantments, and I feel the need for "regular" wraths is already covered by Terminus. I could be wrong though.
5) You mean a singleton tutor out of the board? It might work...
I'll agree they are not two completely different decks, but Enlightened Tutor adds a very large degree of variance which I'm not used to playing with.While there's a lot of merit to "playing what you know," I really don't see there being so much difference between RIP Miracles and straight Miracles that you would have any trouble adjusting. I'm not sure why drocker thinks that RIP is bad against Abrupt Decay decks. Abrupt Decay decks, without fail, are running Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman. Both are worse than awful with RIP on the field. Even if they Abrupt Decay your RIP, you've nuked their GY for at least a few turns. It's not like Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage also.
As far as your actual build goes, I would cut the second Counterspell and the second Energy Field. Many RIP builds run some combination of 2-3 Vendillion Cliques and Venser. I'd use those two new slots for that. That (plus cutting the Wurmcoil and Timely Reinforcements) opens up several slots in your SB for things like Celestial Purge, REB, Pithing Needle, etc.
As far as playing the RIP version, most of the time you'll be Enlightened Tutoring for a Top. Next will probably be Tutoring for a combo piece. Occasionally you'll Tutor for a Counterbalance in say the mirror or against combo, and sometimes you'll Tutor to set up an important Counterbalance hit. Other than that, it plays almost exactly like normal Miracles. You just have more ways to screw graveyard-reliant creatures.
There's a mistake on my RIP list, it should be just 1 Energy Field and 4 Swords.
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
That's the problem. Eventually, you and BUG often end up top decking. Once they set-up cascade into ancestral, it's the worst feeling in the world, while you only have a top to show for.
For the guy who is siding wurmcoil. It is actually a decent plan against bgx. People used to to use Baneslayer for similar purposes but mostly to race. The question is do you want to give up evasion for a more resilient threat? Honestly I like the idea of a threat that requires 2 or more cards to deal with.
Actually, I think the main upside of Wurmcoil vs. Baneslayer is being able to find it with E. Tutor. Finding Baneslayer, as a 1-off, in a reasonable time frame can be quite difficult.
It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
so can we finalize a couple of lists here that we can all agree are the best versions of each list? RIP/Helm, Stoneblade Miracles, and Legendary Miracles including sideboards?
sure, but once you set up the rip -> helm, its instant win instead of draw 3.
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