[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[.dk]

So, with the M14 rule changes - it's possible that a change to the manabase is in order to take advantage of the insanity that is Mox Opal. Just a thought anyway... I can't see a good reason why any storm deck wouldn't want those now if they can achieve metalcraft.

[DredgingLoam]

That was my initial thought as well. Mox Opal just got a whole lot better in any deck that can support it. Also, -1 Duress, +1 Probe?

[.dk]

That was my initial thought as well. Mox Opal just got a whole lot better in any deck that can support it. Also, -1 Duress, +1 Probe?

maybe - that was my first thought. test it and see!

[phazonmutant]

So, with the M14 rule changes - it's possible that a change to the manabase is in order to take advantage of the insanity that is Mox Opal. Just a thought anyway... I can't see a good reason why any storm deck wouldn't want those now if they can achieve metalcraft.

I don't see Mox Opal in this deck as it's currently built. It's much more conditional than Chrome Mox is, and we're not exactly excited about Chrome Mox to begin with. Of course there could be a new build that abuses it, maybe more like walker's original LED build. So working off that thought, how about this as a sketch of a build that tries to abuse infinite Lotus Petal effects?

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Shallow Grave
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Entomb
4 Griselbrand
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Silence
4 Thoughtseize
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland

It seems pretty sketchy, but could be powerful. The natural Tendrils plan is much more legitimate with this build too.

[zulander]

Wait, M14 is next year right? Also I don't know what the rule change is, where can I read it at?

[ScatmanX]

Wait, M14 is next year right? Also I don't know what the rule change is, where can I read it at?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...feature%2F248e
Discussion in the Forum

[.dk]

I don't see Mox Opal in this deck as it's currently built. It's much more conditional than Chrome Mox is, and we're not exactly excited about Chrome Mox to begin with. Of course there could be a new build that abuses it, maybe more like walker's original LED build. So working off that thought, how about this as a sketch of a build that tries to abuse infinite Lotus Petal effects?

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Shallow Grave
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Entomb
4 Griselbrand
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Silence
4 Thoughtseize
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland

It seems pretty sketchy, but could be powerful. The natural Tendrils plan is much more legitimate with this build too.

Looks... weird. Maybe you want some number of Tops to help achieve Metalcraft? Although Top is really too slow for what this deck wants to do.

[phazonmutant]

Looks... weird. Maybe you want some number of Tops to help achieve Metalcraft? Although Top is really too slow for what this deck wants to do.

Ok. I actually goldfished that list for some games. It's real bad. Like. Real bad. Mox Opal doesn't belong in this deck, the LED build is still inconsistent.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

So I was playtesting against RUG and was wondering

a) If a RUG player stifles the Chrome Mox trigger, is it safe to assume they do not have daze?

b) I probed the RUG player, he reveals FoW, Stifle and Spell Snare, is it correct to cabal therapy the Snare

c) is it correct to board out thoughtseize/discard in favor of Silence?

[.dk]

So I was playtesting against RUG and was wondering

a) If a RUG player stifles the Chrome Mox trigger, is it safe to assume they do not have daze?

b) I probed the RUG player, he reveals FoW, Stifle and Spell Snare, is it correct to cabal therapy the Snare

c) is it correct to board out thoughtseize/discard in favor of Silence?

i'll bite.

a - wouldn't necessarily say it's "safe" to assume that. depends on the board state. Stifle is there as a mana denial source - that works on either fetchlands or chrome mox triggers. Either seems appropriate, although a fetchland is obviously better. Again though, it depends on the board state. They could be wanting to cut you off of mana from Chrome Mox so that you CAN'T play around Daze...

b - yes, I would usually take the Spell Snare. If you are making them Force your plays, then they are losing more cards. Spell Snare is pretty insane against this deck in general. Exceptions could be if you know that you need to fetch to win now, and they have a Blue open for Stifle or something like that.

c - I wouldn't board out Thoughtsieze for Silence. It's a combo piece. Some of this depends on how many Griselbrands you are running, but I would usually cut something like Gitaxian Probe or an extra Chrome Mox or something before discard.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

a - wouldn't necessarily say it's "safe" to assume that. depends on the board state. Stifle is there as a mana denial source - that works on either fetchlands or chrome mox triggers. Either seems appropriate, although a fetchland is obviously better. Again though, it depends on the board state. They could be wanting to cut you off of mana from Chrome Mox so that you CAN'T play around Daze...

If I remember right, the board state was simply that I had a fetch active and he had one land in play.

As for the board plan, would you do:
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Reanimate
-1 Child
+3 Silence (I don't run any mainboard, my list is similar to koby's, so I ran 1 mainboard, never really used it and sent it to the board for a third thoughtseize, my last post didn't reflect that as I forgot I cut it, so it should say -1 Reanimate +3 Silence, in addition to the -2 Thoughtsieze)

I don't feel confidant cutting probe as it gives information and interacts favorably with Cabal Therapy, and helps during the combo turn a little bit, although the two life tends to add up against RUG fairly quick.

[Koby]

It's fairly safe to cut 2 Probes in matchups against Tempo, as the life loss is more relevant than the information you gain.
Thoughtseize provides the same information and eats the same life, but also removes one of their spells which is important.

Now against Delver for instance, as long as they don't have a threat out; you can take as much time as you need to setup. The hardest games against Delver are in which they resolve Delver and/or Goyf and start countering the setup spells like Entomb. You don't have the luxury of waiting for a good time to cast them; you just have to go for it. Sometimes, it means walking into an unfortunate Daze.

[roflwaffles]

I haven't played Magic for years since they split the format away from Vintage's restricted list but I just wanted to say this is the most magnificent deck I've ever seen. I used to play Angry Ghoul Reanimator when I last played MTG competitively in 2004 and this deck is the first deck in that amount of time that looks just as fun IMO.

I'm proxying this deck and testing it out and I was wondering why the OP says that Lim-Dul's Vault has been found to be redundant. It seems that sometimes the deck has trouble pitching a Griselbrand in the graveyard if you're only running 2 Grizzles since you need either an Entomb or a discard spell + Griselbrand in your hand. Brainstorm/Ponder only digs so far but Lim-Dul's is basically a 2 mana Vampiric Tutor (is that considered too slow?)

Also, is there a strong case for Pact of Negation in this deck? I haven't really had the combo fizz on me much so it seems like it would be okay to run one of these just as insurance.

[.dk]

I haven't played Magic for years since they split the format away from Vintage's restricted list but I just wanted to say this is the most magnificent deck I've ever seen. I used to play Angry Ghoul Reanimator when I last played MTG competitively in 2004 and this deck is the first deck in that amount of time that looks just as fun IMO.

I'm proxying this deck and testing it out and I was wondering why the OP says that Lim-Dul's Vault has been found to be redundant. It seems that sometimes the deck has trouble pitching a Griselbrand in the graveyard if you're only running 2 Grizzles since you need either an Entomb or a discard spell + Griselbrand in your hand. Brainstorm/Ponder only digs so far but Lim-Dul's is basically a 2 mana Vampiric Tutor (is that considered too slow?)

Also, is there a strong case for Pact of Negation in this deck? I haven't really had the combo fizz on me much so it seems like it would be okay to run one of these just as insurance.

Yeah, I think that line on the OP is a bit outdated. We had tried LDV a long long time ago with a suboptimal build (pre-children) and it didn't seem to work that great. If you're running a 2 Griselbrand build and are a bit more all-in on Entomb, then LDV makes a lot of sense.

I think you can make a good case for a 1 of Pact main, depending on your meta. I personally prefer Silence as it is a lot better in the combo mirror (and it seems every event I play this deck in is riddled with combo), but if you're in a very permission heavy meta, then Pact could be just fine. I kind of view that slot (as well as some of the sideboard slots) as very meta dependent.

[cogitoergosum]

I am going to second LDV being awesome in this deck. I run two of them in the main, and they also help for finding necessary SB cards.

[.dk]

I am going to second LDV being awesome in this deck. I run two of them in the main, and they also help for finding necessary SB cards.

If you're at 2 Griselbrand, I agree. I've been back playing around with 3-4 Griselbrand + Careful Study, and it's definitely not needed (nor is there room) in those builds

[roflwaffles]

Yeah the list I'm currently testing is

Instant (22)
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
3x Goryo's Vengeance
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
4x Shallow Grave
1x Silence

Sorcery (14)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
1x Reanimate
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Thoughtseize

Creature (5)
2x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Griselbrand

Land (13)
4x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Tundra
2x Underground Sea

Artifact (6)
2x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal

It's quite explosive but I do feel the hurdles it has to climb when there isn't an Entomb in hand nor a Therapy/Thoughtseize + Grisel in hand. I'm also about to test a build with Careful Studies and a full set of Griselbrands

(+2 Griselbrand, +4 Careful Study, -2 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Chrome Mox, -2 Lim-Dul's Vault)

What is Gitaxian Probe's role in this deck? Is it just to look at the opponent's hand before you combo out or to augment Cabal Therapy? It can't be for Storm count since whenever I Tendrils of Agony, it's doing far more than 20 life loss to the opponent. I just felt its the weakest card in the OP build right now but I could be wrong.

Also if you have a hand that's like: land, Shallow Grave, Entomb, Reanimate, land, Petal. Shallow Grave, what would you do? Go straight for a turn 1 Griselbrand that will stay past turn 1 and ride out a standard reanimator strategy or wait to go off on turn 2?

[phazonmutant]

What is Gitaxian Probe's role in this deck? Is it just to look at the opponent's hand before you combo out or to augment Cabal Therapy? It can't be for Storm count since whenever I Tendrils of Agony, it's doing far more than 20 life loss to the opponent. I just felt its the weakest card in the OP build right now but I could be wrong.

I was going to make a snarky reply to just look back a couple of pages, but then I actually tried to find the original discussion on Probe (in the modern build) and discovered it was 28 pages ago.

Here's the post where I introduce the idea (again): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post706939
It was talked about by me and people before me all through the history of the deck, but this was the first build with it since a lot of the refining work.

Basically, it's great at just digging deeper for lands, spells, etc, and the information is very important.

[.dk]

What is Gitaxian Probe's role in this deck? Is it just to look at the opponent's hand before you combo out or to augment Cabal Therapy? It can't be for Storm count since whenever I Tendrils of Agony, it's doing far more than 20 life loss to the opponent. I just felt its the weakest card in the OP build right now but I could be wrong.

Also if you have a hand that's like: land, Shallow Grave, Entomb, Reanimate, land, Petal. Shallow Grave, what would you do? Go straight for a turn 1 Griselbrand that will stay past turn 1 and ride out a standard reanimator strategy or wait to go off on turn 2?

The biggest benefit to Probe is information for 0 mana. Card draw is gravy, and storm count is... well usually worthless. If you're going to cut probes though, I would highly recommend adding back at least 1 land to run 14.

Given that hand, I would go for T1 reanimate. If it sticks, you can still attack, draw, and combo out T2. If the reanimate gets countered (likely by a Force), then you can just Shallow Grave T2. If Entomb gets countered... you're in a world of hurt. :)

[cogitoergosum]

I really don't like careful study in the deck, it is just too hard to hit grisel with only 3-4 of him. I have been running 3 grisel, to increase self-discard, and 2 LDV main, to act as entomb 5-6. This build has had the best feel to me of anything I have played so far. For build reference, I run 13 lands, no silence main, and 3 gitaxian probe (sometimes 4 with a 61 card deck).