I'm not reluctant to change but for once i find it extremely hard to be happy about it. This is changing a lot of fundamental plays in legacy. With jace, jitte, geist, liliana etc. being extremely strong cards that are somewhat hard to remove these powerful cards became even better and harder to remove.
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.Esper stoneblade
Dreadbore and Vindicate are going to become more important. Dreadbore can take out creatures, lili and jace (abrupt decay cant take out jace). Vindicate can help dominate the planeswalker battles in esper / deathblade mirrors.
The new legendary and planeswalker uniqueness rules are awful!
That clones/copies can't kill opponents stuff anymore could be ok in my opinion, but the actual legendary cards still should or it is weird. Even worse for planeswalkers.
I don't like that you can now exploit having several copies of certain legendary permanents or just by copying them (Planeswalker activations, Gaea's Cradle, Dark Depth+Thespian Stage, ...).
Sounds nearly as awful as the Mental Misstep wars while it was legal.Originally Posted by Megadeus
Smells like Dark Depths won't be around for long, if it works good enough.
I think that this is not so bad. Everything that makes Show and Tell and giant untouchable monsters worse is good. :)
Oh no, they wouldn't! :O It really smells like the Revised Dual Lands could come back as Legendaries now!
That could give Legacy a chance to survive a little bit longer but I find it awful for flavor. (I like the flavor of the Revised Dual Lands so much!)
I want to see something with two Griselbrands on both side of the field now.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
can you imagine this? this could theorically help legacy A LOT, please legendary duals!!
Me too, brother.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Wouldn't the Dark Stage combo fit in Lands.dec?
Maybe a faster win?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Hey, they implemented all the changes I suggested to the legendary rule, great!
The only change I didn't suggest was the one that stops opposite legends from destroying each other, it looks like they got tired of blue clones being used as pseudo-removal. Well, I thought that one was stupid, though it means that now Umezawa's Jitte will be even harder to stop now.
By the way, in the message I sent to wizards I specifically mentioned how Mox Opal and Gaea's Cradle would get "extra" activations, so they are aware of that. It also means that effects like Living Death no longer suck with two or more copies of a legend in your graveyard. They even used my example of pacifism on teysa on the article explaining the changes!
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
Hey, they implemented all the changes I suggested to the legendary rule, great!
The only change I didn't suggest was the one that stops opposite legends from destroying each other, it looks like they got tired of blue clones being used as pseudo-removal. Well, I thought that one was stupid, though it means that now Umezawa's Jitte will be even harder to stop now.
By the way, in the message I sent to wizards I specifically mentioned how Mox Opal and Gaea's Cradle would get "extra" activations, so they are aware of that. It also means that effects like Living Death no longer suck with two or more copies of a legend in your graveyard. They even used my example of pacifism on teysa on the article explaining the changes!
So you're the jackass that caused all this ruckus! LOL j/k
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Yep, now all they need to do is listen to your cries for Force of Will to be banned and we can close the B&R Thread!
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
...Hey, they implemented all the changes I suggested to the legendary rule, great!
The only change I didn't suggest was the one that stops opposite legends from destroying each other, it looks like they got tired of blue clones being used as pseudo-removal. Well, I thought that one was stupid, though it means that now Umezawa's Jitte will be even harder to stop now.
By the way, in the message I sent to wizards I specifically mentioned how Mox Opal and Gaea's Cradle would get "extra" activations, so they are aware of that. It also means that effects like Living Death no longer suck with two or more copies of a legend in your graveyard. They even used my example of pacifism on teysa on the article explaining the changes!
Top tier trolling as always i see.
Guys, stop freaking out about chain activations. In the first 10 cards of 60 card deck the probability is about 12% to have two or more copies in hand (assuming it is 4-off card). So every eight game you will have opportunity to do this. Gamebreaking
Ok people, here's the thing: Even before the rules change, putting Emrakul into play via Show and Tell was probably the worst thing you could do with all variants of Show and Tell. I think everyone that has played this deck will agree here.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Yeah, it's not like there was a shortage of ways to deal with Emrakul or anything. Plus it's harder to stop their Karakas now...
Chaining Cradles and Opals arent that gamebreaking. It's just a minor improvement. If an Elf deck is tapping a cradle for a ton of mana and chaining into another cradle with Glimpse, you've already lost. It just makes Elves easier to kill on the turn they go off, so they don't lose to a sudden sweeper the next turn. Chaining cradles doesn't make Elves suddenly unbeatable since most of the fight goes into preventing Glimpse from resolving.
As for opals, a storm deck has to go to alot of effort to turn on Opals, and may not even be worth it. So I don't see the big problem here.
The main thing is Dark Depths-Stage. It's ridiculously strong, but can be hated out by things common things like Wasteland and Swords. It's great that the combo gives half-dead decks like Mav a new breath of life, but it's far from bannable.
My thoughts (gonna copy/paste here, since I don't think my privacy settings will allow me to link to FB:
As with most major, sudden changes, I awoke to the revised legendary/planeswalker uniqueness rules (henceforth simply legendary) with a large amount of trepidation and angst. However, upon thinking the changes through, I have come to the conclusion that it is not the rules change itself that represents the problem. Rather, it is the powerful cards to which we are accustomed, which have not historically been a problem because of the old, flawed, legend rule.
Consider Jace the Mind Sculptor, Greater than All.
This change affects Jace in two primary ways. The first is that playing a Jace to vindicate your opponent's Jace is not going to work anymore. This seems obvious, but it means profound things for the blue mirror -- deck construction in particular. No longer can you lean on "more Jace" to get the job done. Rather, now you have to actually consider ways to destroy planeswalkers in your lists. I saw Brian Braun-Druin comment this morning on Twitter that Vindicate has become even better in legacy as of this change, and I concur.
The second change for Jace is that blue players are going to have to learn a new game. They're going to have to learn how to interact with the Jace mirror -- and I mean the literal Jace mirror. It's easy to imagine a scenario where, on turn 4, Player 1 taps out for Jace. Let's say neither player has a counter open, to make things simple. Player 1 Jacestorms and pass back. Player 2 casually plays a land, and taps out for his own Jace. Now, should Player 2 Jacestorm? Or should he start Fatesealing? Whoever starts Fatesealing first will resolve ultimate first (assuming an open field and no modifying factors). However, if Player 1 then begins Fatesealing as well, Player 1 should usually have more cards in their hand, which means that when the ultimates fire off, Player 2 would actually lose the war. Again, this is a somewhat nonrealistic example because there will of course be counters, attacking creatures, Bolts, and other such intervening features involved -- however, I believe the point stands. Knowing what abilities to use when on Jace is actually going to add a new dimension to the game.
Other cards that are notable:
Liliana of the Veil -- Already great as a 4-of, now even better. -2 with your Lily in play, then play another one and +1 her. You end with a Liliana with 4 loyalty (since the new Liliana replaces the old one in this scenario).
Jitte mirror -- When do you use what ability?
Gaea's Cradle and Serra's Sanctum -- I would not be surprised to see these end up banned within 6 months. On the other hand, the format may adjust. The large upwelling of Esperblade that is coming will make Elves less attractive of an option, but may improve Enchantress even further.
Mox Opal -- Affinity in modern (and legacy, I suppose) gets a bit of a boost from this, since "extra" Opals are now Lotus Petals at worst. It's also worth considering the vintage applications here.
Legendary utility lands -- I'm thinking of Karakas and Academy Ruins here specifically. There is now less of a drawback to running these in your Ux / Wx control decks.
Dark Depths -- This is a less obvious one. There is now a powerful interaction with Thespian's Stage here, whereby you can -- preferably at EoT -- use Thespian's Stage to become a Dark Depths. The Thespian Depths will replace the Dark Depths, but it will not have any Ice Counters on it, and is free to become a Merit Lage immediately, with no Hexmage necessary. As a completely colorless combo, this could appear in any of a large number of places. Look for Dark Depths to spike in price.
Vendilion Clique -- I've heard a lot of people say that this gets a bump, but I disagree. If each side is allowed a Clique, Clique actually -decreases- in power level, because the players are then able to choose which of them feels they are the beatdown. Additionally, any bump that Clique would receive is mitigated by Karakas being better, which means that you still only want around 2 Cliques per deck. Unlike Jace, Clique isn't an overnight 4-of.
Geist of St. Traft, Thun, and Sigarda -- These creatures all get incredible power boosts, because they are now virtually impossible to kill (Thrun in particular). The Hexproof legends now are no longer susceptible to being Cloned out, nor can you answer their legend with your own copy. Of these, Geist is far and away the scariest option for legacy play, as Thrun is too small of a body to be meaningful in a Tarmogoyf world and Sigarda is too expensive outside of Nic Fit and Cradle-powered Maverick decks.
Phantasmal Image -- This little guy is now unplayable outside of Pod and Merfolk. Its use as an offensive weapon is gone.
And so on. This change has many deep ramifications, not all of which are immediately apparent. Some of them are just going to need to come out naturally, with time and development. What is quickly apparent, however, is that one deck in particular experiences great gains from this change: Esperblade.
Esperbalde is uniquely situated within the meta as a Jace deck which is capable of playing a legitimate creature game. The other two Jace decks, BUGStill and Miracles, are neither one truly capable of applying pressure to opposing Jaces. BUGStill has a few manlands and Snapcasters -- Miracles doesn't even have that. Shardless BUG is also capable of pressuring opposing Jaces, but I would hesitate to call Shardless a "Jace deck," so much as it is a deck that happens to play Jace.
Another thing that is worth keeping in mind about Esperblade is that it is capable of playing a large number of the cards that I'm talking about here. Jitte, Jace, Geist of St. Traft, Karakas and Ruins, and Clique are all powerful legends that are capable of taking over the game, and to some extent I feel that Esperblade has actually been held back by the fact that it's trying to play all of them in a world where mirror matches frequently mean that at least some of these options are not going to be able to live up to their full potential in every match-up.
Other movers in the legacy metagame will likely include Elves and Enchantress, both of which have been increasing in power and popularity for a while now thanks to Hoof and RIP/Helm respectively. Look for Sneak & Show to fall in popularity, as Karakas's stock goes up. Beck-powered Cheerios could potentially be a thing now, with the powered-up Mox Opal. Likewise, Storm could get a shot in the arm via Mox Opal, but the question there would be what the lists would actually look like.
----------
A closing thought: a large number of the cards that improve from this change are cards that are depressing to play against. I believe that this is where much of the ire towards this rules change comes from -- indeed, it is the primary reason I had the knee-jerk reaction of "oh god, no." Sitting across from an active Ruins that you can't shut down, or a Liliana who is destroying your hand, or a Geist of St. Traft that you can't remove, or a Vendilion Clique that's taken your best card and then proceeding to bolt you every turn, or sitting across from Elves as they proceed to masturbate upon the field, or playing as Sneak/Show and staring at your opponent's Karakas, or so on -- these are all things that most of us would categorize as unfun. When our copies of these cards were capable of shutting down our opponents' copies, it was okay. But now, in this new world, we're all going to have to get used to the idea that what we're doing to our opponent can and likely will be returned to us. Amusingly, Jace actually gains a lot from this rules change, as much of the sadness surrounding Jace stemmed from the fact that once your opponent's Jace landed, you couldn't really get out from under it unless you had it dead-on-board. Jace is actually substantially more okay under these new rules.
Of everything that this changes that I am aware of at present, I believe the Hexproof Legends and the remaining broken Urza's lands (Cradle and Sanctum) are likely to be the most dangerous to legacy's health overall. Geist of St. Traft in particular should have never been printed if WotC was considering this change, and Geist's stock will likely shoot up quite a bit. Incidentally, Geist is a good way of pressuring opposing Jaces. Cradle and Sanctum are both relics of an older era, with Academy having already been excised from the format. Sanctum is actually probably more dangerous than Cradle is under the new rules, as the Cradle change only really makes Elves into a 100% guaranteed turn 3 deck. The legend change all but ensures that once Enchantress starts going off, it is going to win. Between Enchantress and Dark Stage, Exploration probably gets a bit of a bump as well.
In the end, I believe this change will actively improve the game....after a time. I do believe that at least one and possibly two cards are going to get banned in the fall-out from this change. However, I don't foresee any bannings occurring until Theros is released. Either way, these next few months will be interesting times.
omg i can"t believe wizards keeps using your idaez you are liek the most important wizards designer and totalyz not deluzional!!1!!1hey, they implemented all the changes i suggested to the legendary rule, great!
The only change i didn't suggest was the one that stops opposite legends from destroying each other, it looks like they got tired of blue clones being used as pseudo-removal. Well, i thought that one was stupid, though it means that now umezawa's jitte will be even harder to stop now.
By the way, in the message i sent to wizards i specifically mentioned how mox opal and gaea's cradle would get "extra" activations, so they are aware of that. It also means that effects like living death no longer suck with two or more copies of a legend in your graveyard. They even used my example of pacifism on teysa on the article explaining the changes!
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Did Stage + Depths work before these changes as well?
You can't believe it, even when I told you about it a year ago? Such a low faith is depressing.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post636465
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
No, it got legend ruled
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote