[Deck] The Rock

[AggroSteve]

as far as i understand those changes the do not effect us much, other than you can now chain liliana effects if you have multiples in hand, and even in that case i would keep the extra ones until my first one dies.

the only really relevant thing that changes IMO is that karakas and jitte still live on if the opponent has one, which makes jitte much more of a vialbe option against any bladevariant IMO

if i am mistaken, please explain why there should be so much of a difference now

[Claymore]

I think it just makes several aspects of our game stronger.

As Deadguy Ale says,

Huge rules change.

"Let's play 4 Liliana"

Chaining Lilianas is absurdly powerful. You can now drop the second Jitte to free up space in the sideboard (replace with Mankiri or w/e to still kill Jittes).

A singleton Jitte in a SFM deck or tutorboard is now much stronger since it can't be killed by opposing Jittes.

Show and Tell can't board in their own Karakas...although I don't see why they wouldn't just use Wasteland in the first place.

Also, the Thespian Depths combo I mentioned above.

[damionblackgear]

New legend rule makes Liliana insanely powerful in multiples

True.

New Planeswalker rule summed up - They only see other legends of their type (Liliana, Jace, etc) on their owners side of the field. When they see other, one may stay (owners choice so keep the one that's still active), the others die. [Source]

That means that you can't use a Liliana as a pseudo-vindicate to get out from under a Liliana. So, she just became that much more of an annoyance on your opponent's side as well.

The same thing happened to the Legendary rule.

Sideboarding will be 60+/0-15 for starts instead of 60+/"0 or 15" now. You still don't get to pre-board against a match but boarding is no longer 1;1 exchanges. You just have to have 60+ in the deck when you present it. Be careful abusing that in this format (not just this deck). Most decks are tuned to run at a minimal land count, for consistency. Boarding in too much will throw off you're ability to play you're cards.

There's a semi-confusing (because they explained it seemingly to be more complex than it really is) adjustment for playing lands with effects that let you play extra. Now you can play your land per turn after your extra land plays ("land for exploration" before "land for turn"). Soon, Things that let you play additional lands only raise the count of how many lands played. Also, there is no more "Land for exploration" crap. It'll be: land 1, land 2, land 3, etc. When you reach your limit, you're done. Example: Exploration gives you ONE extra land play per turn. So you can play two lands. If you've played 2 lands already, removing exploration from play and having it come back does not let you play a third. You can play 2 lands (Turn + Exploration), and you have played 2. If anyone has any questions I'll try to help.

The other two changes really don't matter in this format right now: Indestructible is now a keyword and Unblockable is not anymore

[sdematt]

I think it just makes several aspects of our game stronger.

As Deadguy Ale says,



Chaining Lilianas is absurdly powerful. You can now drop the second Jitte to free up space in the sideboard (replace with Mankiri or w/e to still kill Jittes).

A singleton Jitte in a SFM deck or tutorboard is now much stronger since it can't be killed by opposing Jittes.

Show and Tell can't board in their own Karakas...although I don't see why they wouldn't just use Wasteland in the first place.

Also, the Thespian Depths combo I mentioned above.

Not only is Lili powerful, Jace is REALLY REALLY good now. Getting Jace low without killing him to strand the other one in their hand is no longer an option. There will be Jace blowouts where They use their Jace, and say, bounce a creature and go to Jace with 1 counter. Then, Drop Jace #2, kill the old one, and either fateseal/Brainstorm/bounce again. That's pretty insane.

This now means getting EVERY Jace is important.

I tested a few games against Esper yesterday and Knight was fine. I tested without Teeg since the argument the Esper player made was that, "I can play about 85% of my game without Jace. Jace is just a nice bonus." And it's true. I think one Teeg to bring in is fine, but Thalia was much more decisive. The deck is still cantripping to find answers, and trying to Swords and Snapcaster. Making that harder means they need to cantrip into more lands to cast spells, not just into pure spells, which really slows them down.

However, with this Jace nonsense, we'll see what happens.

Also, we can cut an Abrupt Decay in the boarded games, but don't cut Souls. It's so good.

-Matt

[Claymore]

I bought in on the hype for Knight of the Thespian Depths, gonna test it out either main or side.

[AggroSteve]

Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage

i am not sure if i get this one right, how would this combo work exactly?

my thoughts on it would have been that when dark depths is allready on the field and thespian's stage comes into play as a copy of dark depths you keep thespian's stage and because it has no counters on it you get the 20/20 Marit Lage, am i right on this?

[Nihilis]

Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage

i am not sure if i get this one right, how would this combo work exactly?

my thoughts on it would have been that when dark depths is allready on the field and thespian's stage comes into play as a copy of dark depths you keep thespian's stage and because it has no counters on it you get the 20/20 Marit Lage, am i right on this?

Yes.

When you copy the Dark Depths with Thespian's Stage, the latter becomes a Dark Depths but without the ice counters. Before this rule, both lands would be destroyed due to the legend rule. This meant that the copied Dark Depths would be destroyed first, before the 'sacrifice this to put Marit Lage into play' clause could resolve. Now you destroy the original Dark Depths and keep the Thespian's Stage, so the sacrifice trigger will go through and you get the token.

[JanoschEausH]

Hey guys,
i have just transitioned from Deadguys Ale to Junk, because since Deathrite Shaman exists i wanted to play the optimal shell for this card, which is Junk, in my humble opinion.
This is my actual list:

Artifact: (2)
2x Sensei's Divining Top (could be Libraries - still testing)

Creatures: (16)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Tarmogoyf (could be 3 maybe)

Instant: (7)
3x Abrupt Decay (i like the split 3x Decay 1x Pulse - as i first saw in Matts list)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Land: (23)
2x Bayou
2x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
3x Marsh Flats
1x Savannah
3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Wasteland

Sorcery: (12)
2x Cabal Therapy (testing 2x Inquisition of Kozilek - could aswell be 3 Therapy/Inquisition by dropping a land)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize

SB: under development (will contain at least 2x Deed, x Gaddock Teegs, Thalias or Canonists, SnT-Hate and Extractions beside other GY-hate)

The new legend-rule kept me thinking. If Liliana's and Jaces are going rampant in the next time why not keep fighting them with Phyrexian Revokers? I know from the time playing Deadguy that this card is extremely powerful, especially considering the collateral dmg against Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Equipment and Mother of Runes. What do you think of it? I can't find room for it in my list, what would you drop? Do you think it fits in here? Do you have any recommendations regarding my list?

Best Regards!

[Mirrislegend]

So is the general consensus that, if one is playing any Liliana's, we almost certainly need to play 4 of them?

[sdematt]

I don't think you NEED to play 4 Liliana if you do play her, but if your gameplan is all about Liliana or Jace, then maximize on that.

I played my list has night to a 2-0-2 (had to leave last round, so we drew) finish to third place. Unintentional draw against Jund in Round 3. I had her beat, but needed an extra turn.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Knight
3 Goyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite
1 Ooze

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse
3 Zenith
3 Sylvan (again, the gamebreaker. Carried me so far against Jund/Esper)
4 Lingering souls (again, House)

--BOARD--

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Loam
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Golgari Charm
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Cabal Therapy


More to come later. Beat Deathblade, tied with Jund, 2-0'd Merfolk, left against Esperblade.

Overall, the gameplan against Esperblade seemed fine. Bring in Thalia, take out Thoughtseize, bring in Cabal Therapy, cut a single Abrupt Decay.

Gaddock Teeg actually isn't a must in the matchup. Knights were fine and won me a game, in all honesty (I wanted to try keeping them in again). However, I feel like Knight is VERY much an "on the play" card. On the draw, being a turn behind Jace, you want to have maybe your own Planeswalker to land on Turn 4 and disrupt on Turn 3, etc.

Deathblade is way easier of a matchup, I think. You get to bring in more Charms and Deeds and wreck their face. Hooray! The Lotion Thief is a pretty good one, though.

-Matt

[Petree]

In the Esper match-up I have never taken out the knights draw or play. The reason why is because he's a closer and pressures the control player a lot especially along tarmorgoyf. I have never brought in teeg either. I approach the match-up almost like the maverick match-up. I have brought in my extirpates to target their lingering souls and it literally gives them 2 other ways to win. Jace or batterskull, which isn't hard anymore bc if I discard or make the skull not a threat no more, i let the creatures in my deck do the winning, aggro beats control. I have switched the nantuko monastery to a tower of magistrate and it's been good. The new maverick plays almost the same game. I do agree though, I usually do take out the discard spells because they are really crappy later. Lilianna does a lot of work in this matchup so does DRS. So they'll always attempt to counter the DRS or remove him. Which then I let my DRS just become a bait. Always though bring in deeds and charms lol

[Claymore]

Nevermind, Notion Thief cannot be effectively used against Sylvan Library. Sylvan is a "may" ability, and since you choose to draw or not on resolution, all Thief does is stop you from using it.

Speaking of Sylvan, an opponent at my last tournament showed me that you can partially utilize two Sylvans to get your own version of Braincestral Recall. I wasn't aware of it so I'll share: With a fetchland or unnecessary Knight in play, use the first trigger of Sylvan to draw one or more cards. With the second trigger on the stack, use your fetch/Knight to get 2 brand new cards to look at and swap out with the card(s) you drew on the first trigger.

This makes multiple Sylvans much more useful than I thought, and I'm gonna have to try and put in #3 again.

I'm not all that convinced on Extirpate on Souls, since Esper will often be required to hold it until 5 mana due to an active Deathrite Shaman.

[sdematt]

Yeah, just watch out for Lotion Thief on your Sylvan. We don't get blown out quite as hard as Jace or Brainstorm, but it still needs to be dealt with quickly.

Actually, how does that work? Sylvan is a "may". Does "may" get used when the trigger resolves or is it assumed "yes I will" when you put the trigger on the stack (alternative being to not put it on the stack at all)?

It's a MAY. So if he Lotion Thiefs you in response to the Sylvan trigger, you just decide NOT to do Sylvan, and he gets no value.

The only value that he gets out of Lotion Thief in our matchup is you get to quote Silence of the Lambs.

"It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again!"

Speaking of Sylvan, an opponent at my last tournament showed me that you can partially utilize two Sylvans to get your own version of Braincestral Recall. I wasn't aware of it show I'll share: With a fetchland or unnecessary Knight in play, use the first trigger of Sylvan to draw one or more cards. With the second trigger on the stack, use your fetch/Knight to get 2 brand new cards to look at and swap out with the card(s) you drew on the first trigger.

This makes multiple Sylvans much more useful than I thought, and I'm gonna have to try and put in #3 again.

Yes, it is marginally useful for sure. I try to keep telling people Sylvan is a beast, but no one listens :P I'm also very certain you can put back cards from the first Sylvan as well on the second trigger, since they're cards you drew NOT on your initial draw, as well.

@ Esper matchup

The issue is also there are two flavours of this matchup. In the Esperblade matchup, bringing in Golgari Charm to wipe out Dark Confidant is also quite important (and Deed is even better against a deck packing more and more creatures + Equipment, much like facing a quasi-Blue Maverick deck with Jace).

The thing is, we need more X-for-1's in this matchup. That's the issue. There's no card that we have (or use yet) that has the "Get you!" factor like they have for us: Perish, Supreme Verdict, EE, Zealous Persecution, SoFF, etc.

Thalia is very good (and I mean, VERY good). I was playing Esper and my friend was playing Junk, and it wasn't fun to have Thalia on the other side of the board, for sure. Some builds aren't even playing Lingering Souls (or if they are, it's a 1-2 of). Only the old, old builds are playing 3-4.

In fact, looking at the lists, they aren't even playing Sword of Feast and Famine. I know my friend is since I'm on Junk 24/7, but still, this is something to be noted.

The 7th place list from Nashville is the more traditional build.

I think it's about finding cards that absolutely harangue the Esper player if it's a big enough threat. Miracles is not even a thing for us, and I think that's fine. But, I think we have to decide if we're the aggro deck or we're the control deck when facing either a traditional Esper variant or a Deathblade variant.

My opinion is that against a Deathblade variant, we're the control deck since they have less access to X-for-1's and the ability to lock up the board while Jace comes down (aka they don't play Souls or as many Sweepers). Deathblade is much more focused on value creatures, which we can nicely sweep away, whereas traditional Esper Control is more focused on stack interaction and Sweepers.

I think against something that placed first or second at Nashville, I'd want to bring this against them:

+2 Deed (higher chance of having an X-for-1, which is where you get your value, plus they're counterspell light)
+3 Thalia (I feel like the tax coupled with first strike in a red zone based game is going to be quite good)
+1 Cabal Therapy (reusable discard is much better here)

The question really remains what to bring out.

-3 Thoughtseize (again, we're the control deck)

But the question remains, what else? I still want to bring in more control elements to fight their Sweepers. I want to be one step ahead of their sweepers by bringing in Walkers and making their cards MUCH less valuable. For example, looking at this list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=55937

Their plan against us is likely:

-3 Force of Will
-1 Notion Thief

+1 Path to Exile
+2 Supreme Verdict
+1 Vindicate

and with this list it's:

-2 Liliana
-3 Thoughtseize

+1 EE
+1 Snapcaster
+2 Verdict
+1 Souls


What board plan has been working for you guys for Esper Control or Deathblade? What are your actual in vs. out plans with your respective lists (post them, since just saying +/- without a full list means nothing).

-Matt

[Claymore]

Man I wish I kept better notes. When I played Nolan (1st place, Deathblade) he definitely brought in the Verdict(s) and Vindicate (used to kill Tower). I think I did

+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
+ 1 Tower of the Magistrate

-2 Cabal Therapy
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Abrupt Decay or Pulse

I don't remember the games anymore, especially because I have trouble differentiating him and the Esper I went 2-0 against, but Tower did serious work. I never got Sorin down, and the only time I would have would've been game 3 after we ran out of time and I would have won that game (had Souls out)...except he used turn 4 of time to Supreme Verdict and force the draw lol.

When I played against Evan (7th, Lingering Esper) I had the same board plan, except this time I got too far behind by getting mana screwed and he won through the air with Lingering Souls.

The third Esper I played probably had the same sideboard plan, except I was able to overrun with Knights and Goyfs game 2 fairly quickly on the back of Tower of the Magistrate.

Gaddock Teeg was largely an awkward play all day. He stopped Jace and Verdict, but at the same time he was severely stymied by SFM Batterskull, killed by Jitte, or bounced with Karakas. The good thing was that he could be run out to eat up removal fairly easily, but against the typical board state he was just a Grizzly Bear where I would rather have some Fat.

If I was going to do this again with my current deck, I would do:

+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
+ 1 Tower of the Magistrate
+ 1 Pernicious Deed
+ 1 Enlightened Tutor

-2 Cabal Therapy
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Teeg
-1 Wasteland

The remaining Swords are close to the chopping block to keep Cabal Therapy in, but Vendilion Clique and Bob are still high priority targets. Maybe remove the Sorins?

My list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post725645

With all of my effective removal, it is extremely hard for the Esper player to win with creatures and must win through Jace. Lingering Souls, Sorin, and Maelstrom Pulse along with good quality fat help stop Jace.

[lavafrogg]

I just found a new weekly tourney that started 3 weeks ago. I am playing Wednesday and will report how it goes!!

Nothing has changed in my list since I last posted. Lots of work and lots of starcraft...

[.Ix]

Has anyone tested the Depths-Stage combo yet? I've been goldfishing this list:

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Forest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
2 Thoughtseize
2 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg (flex spot)
1 Life from the Loam

It feels really good. Getting the combo out is hilariously easy to do with all the card draw and tutors. It feels a LOT like Time Vault / Voltaic Key, where you naturally find one half of the combo while just doing your thing, and then almost instantly end the game with a tutor. It's very compact and works well with cards that are already good in the deck. It might be possible that 2 Crop Rotation is too much, but it's been alright so far. I could cut one for another Cabal Therapy, I suppose. Crop Rotation is great for finding the Arbor for a Therapy flashback, though.

I wish Marit Lage had trample, but you can't have everything.

[Asthereal]

I believe the Depths combo is worse than Natural Order into Progenitus.
And that is already not strong enough to play in Junk, according to most.

Anyway, I came up with this list:

4 Deathrite
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Knight /16

3 Top
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition
4 StP
3 Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana /21

3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Catacombs
3 Flats
2 Heath
4 Wasteland /23

Side:
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith /15

I'm considering to play this list in the upcoming tourney. Any last minute tips?

[.Ix]

Natural Order Progenitus is completely different. It costs 4 Mana, sacrifices a creature before it resolves, takes 5 slots which are otherwise dead, and our Knights can get bigger than 10/10 anyway. Thespian/Depths only takes two slots and costs two mana. You can (or should) really just play normally until you have an opening to tutor it out with Knight or Crop Rotation. If you've played Vintage with Vault/Key you'd know what I meant by this. Also, just having it in the deck means our Knights become Tezzeret the Seekers. I will test this a lot tomorrow.

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone tested the Depths-Stage combo yet? I've been goldfishing this list:

2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Forest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
2 Thoughtseize
2 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg (flex spot)
1 Life from the Loam

It feels really good. Getting the combo out is hilariously easy to do with all the card draw and tutors. It feels a LOT like Time Vault / Voltaic Key, where you naturally find one half of the combo while just doing your thing, and then almost instantly end the game with a tutor. It's very compact and works well with cards that are already good in the deck. It might be possible that 2 Crop Rotation is too much, but it's been alright so far. I could cut one for another Cabal Therapy, I suppose. Crop Rotation is great for finding the Arbor for a Therapy flashback, though.

I wish Marit Lage had trample, but you can't have everything.

Just an observation, but it looks like you really want to be playing Nic-Fit with an 'oops I win' Stage/Depths combo. Your list seems much more suited to that style of play.

[.Ix]

Why do you think so? I don't know much about nic fit, but I was under the impression that it wants to ramp to get huge threats into play one after the other. I'm not trying to do that.