[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[dune2k]

Well, if it's on upkeep, you can deny them a black lotus, esp. If you're waiting for ancient grudge you tucked away with a brainstorm or ponder. It's also good to buy you a turn for delver to flip or a creature to deal lethal, and you gain incremental advantage by tapping city of brass

No, you don't:

Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant.

Always happy playing against Canadian Thresh players w/ ANT, since most don't know my and/or their deck and the important interactions. :)

[Barbed Blightning]

No, you don't:

Always happy playing against Canadian Thresh players w/ ANT, since most don't know my and/or their deck and the important interactions. :)

I've always seen storm pilots (TES, ANT, Belcher or otherwise) tapping their LEDs. Oh well, I still like Fire // Ice; 2/3 ain't bad.

ANT's a joke matchup for any reasonable Thresh player, regardless, since it's much slower than TES and lacks the versatility of Burning Wish or the protection/disruption of Silence/Chant.

[Tammit67]

Mini-report: Took Jacob Wilson's 2nd place GP Strasbourg list to Cyborg One in Doylestown PA for a weekly legacy event after cutting the zuran orb for a second sulfur elemental. 20 people in attendance, 4 rounds with prizes based on record.

List here.

Meta was:
3 Storm combo (two TES, other a weird AnT)
2 Show and tell (one omni, one sneak)
2 Elves (one UGB with beck/natural order, other UGW natural order)
2 Esper Stoneblade
1 Death and Taxes (Serra avengers)
1 RUG (me)
1 UR delver
1 Burn
1 UG Cloudpost
1 UW Painter grindstone
1 MUD
1 Dredge
1 RBG punishing fire loam pox
1 Jund
1 Affinity

Round 1: John W. with Weird AnT build
Game 1: John is known locally for playing 2 decks: either his own AnT build or goblins. This means my opener of tropical island, wasteland, delver, 2x brainstorm, ponder, daze has the clock i want and the filter I need to find the right answers. Delver is followed by swamp pass. Blind flip with lightning bolt, ponder for second blue source and action fails but draws a second waste. After a few turns and wasteland activations later he drops double petal, cracks them and taps swamp for BBR to get threshhold, and casts cabal ritual with R floating which promptly meets FoW. Never let them get the mana when you just kill them next turn.
SB: +1 spell pierce, 1 flusterstorm, 1 vendillion clique, 1 grafdigger's cage. - 1 forked bolt, 2 lightning bolt, 1 gitaxian probe, 1 goyf
Game 2: Turn 2 dark confidant off city of traitors + swamp eats a bolt, Turn 3 confidant gets snared. Goyf begins bashing. Duress reveals 2 daze 2 stifle 1 clique and John laments not being able to take clique. EoT clique finishes him from 7 with goyf
Record 1-0, 2-0 in games

Round 2: Ross P. with UGb Elves (7 glimpse effects, 2 natural order)
Game 1: I keep a serviceable 6 with more counters than removal. Super nice guy Ross unapologetically value glimpses me as 2 delvers fails to flip for a couple turns, runs me out of relevant disruption, draws 20 cards before showing me craterhoof. Ugh. Counter hands feel like lose lose situations. I certainly could have stifled a deathrite activation to deny blue mana but didn't for no real reason.
Sideboard: +3 submerge, 2 rough//tumble. -2 spell pierce, 1 snare, 2 force (since on the play)
Game 2: Stifle and waste keep him mana tight, but nimble is unable to find room to swing in. I force two glimpse effects, ponder cannot find the rough//tumble. A third glimpse found via visionary/symbiote allows him to combo.
This matchup feels much harder than typical elves list. The first glimpse doesn't usually force them all in, but we still can't let it resolve. I need to test against this more
Record 1-1, 2-2 in games

Round 3: Kevin T. with Red MUD
Game 1: I lose the die roll against MUD but am not punished for it. Instead Kevin casts faithless looting and pitches land blightsteel colossus. I remind him of the trigger so welder eventually can't sneak it into play, play delver. Darksteel citadel blanks wasteland and daze on his Goblin Welder but delver gets airborne. Turn 3 jitte after an ancient tomb has me stifle the equip and ponder into removal for welder. Nimble joins the fray and closes the game out.
Sideboard: +1 spell pierce, 1 vendillion clique, 1 krosan grip, 1 Life from the loam. -4 stifle (no fetches but a ton of other reasonable targets. What would you take out?)
Game 2: I keep an awesome hand that gets to play magic should there be no turn 1 Chalice @1. :(
Game 3: I get to cast my delver before another chalice hits play at X=1. I gitaxian probe to pump eventual goyfs and crack in for 3. Two turns of indestructible lands later I find myself on the wrong side of metalworker. I brainstorm in response as my only out, he lets it resolve. I find Force and goyf and his missed trigger lets me win. (waiting for the hatemail)
Record 2-1, 4-3 in games

Round 4: Matt D. on OmniShow
Game 1: I lose another die roll but am rewarded with a fetchland pass from my opponent. I respond in kind with a tropical island, pass. Matt cracks the fetch EoT and gets stifled. From here, he has to lotus petal + brainstorm to find mana which puts him down a lot of cards. He cast show and tell with 3 cards in hand, 6 life staring down flipped delver and unthreshed goose. I have force, stifle 2 lightning bolt in hand, volcanic island, wasteland, and tropical island in play untapped.
My decision tree:
A) If he puts in a creature, he dies from bolts. Similarly sneak attack while tapped out does nothing. Any course of action wins here
B) If he puts in omniscience I have problems. ->

If it is omni with Emrakyl and force, my stifle on the extra turn trigger will not resolve and I can't survive annihilator. Forcing here prevents the omni and he dies to double bolt

If omni with burning wish and force, same deal as above exchanging stifle for force on burning wish, better force show and tell

omni without protection either gets the turn stifled or wish forced. Force yields same results as sandbagging

I infact did not force the show and tell and he drops emrakyl and dies to double bolt. I threw the game and my opponent could not capitalize.

Sideboard: -4 lightning bolt, 1 forked bolt, 1 nimble mongoose. +2 pyroblast, 1 clique, 1 spell pierce, 1 flusterstorm, krosan grip.
Game 2: My hand doesn't have much of a clock, but has the hard counters I want. My turn two goyf meets and opposing daze, which I force, which he pierces. I elect not to fight over it further and promptly draw a second goyf. He taps out for a sneak attack a few turns later and i respond with clique to see spell pierce and show and tell as the only cards left in hand for Matt. I take the show and tell with clique, untap and krosan grip the sneak attack. An attack the turn after ends it.
Record: 3-1, 6-3 games

I got $12 credit for my troubles, good for my $5 entry. List was pretty good, though I wasn't as impressed with g.probe as the channel fireball pro. if it continues to be unimpressive, it will be replaced with either 2 thoughtscour or 1 dismember/snare. Sideboard most likely needs a better way to interact with the GY, but otherwise felt good

EDIT:

ANT's a joke matchup for any reasonable Thresh player, regardless, since it's much slower than TES and lacks the versatility of Burning Wish or the protection/disruption of Silence/Chant.

I disagree. They often can make the land drops to play around ou softer disruption while ripping out the hard disruption. Past in flames nullifies getting them low. Hands without delver aren't very good. Post baord most lists get swarm to compound things a little. While it still isn't a bad matchup since we pack so much that they dislike, calling it a joke matchup is a bit much. From playing from both sides I'd say it is about even with a HIGH skill dependancy.

[Pdf]

I've actually found the Jund matchup to be fairly even. They have many powerful cards against us, but so do we against them; it comes down to skill with the deck and a decent mulligan.

Make sure you drop FoW firstmost: the last thing we want to be doing to two-for-one-ing ourselves against the marquee deck of two-for-ones. Pierce and Daze still have merit, as Jund players love to tap out, but probably Daze would probably be the next thing I'd cut.

I agree it's more skill intensive and just like many matchups if they get ahead it's hard to pull back even with a good brainstorm. I don't know that I'd pull out all FoW on the draw as you need some way to stop an early deathrite/bob and often it's better to two for one yourself early than to be two for oned later reducing threshold or reducing the effectiveness of daze/pierce and especially the effectiveness of wastelands. It's infinitely harder to cut off a colour with a deathrite in play. The rough and tumbles can help clean up the mess a bit but the early turns are critical.

Jacob Wilson mentioned his FoW strategy on the draw and I have to agree it's not all bad to be able to stop a critical turn one play.

On a side note, I've been trying out the gitaxian probes and have also been unimpressed. Most of the time you can tell if you need to counter something and knowing what is in the hand hasn't helped much. Being able to cycle for 2 life isn't all bad but thought scour I feel gives more options.

[Barbed Blightning]

I agree it's more skill intensive and just like many matchups if they get ahead it's hard to pull back even with a good brainstorm. I don't know that I'd pull out all FoW on the draw as you need some way to stop an early deathrite/bob and often it's better to two for one yourself early than to be two for oned later reducing threshold or reducing the effectiveness of daze/pierce and especially the effectiveness of wastelands. It's infinitely harder to cut off a colour with a deathrite in play. The rough and tumbles can help clean up the mess a bit but the early turns are critical.

Jacob Wilson mentioned his FoW strategy on the draw and I have to agree it's not all bad to be able to stop a critical turn one play.

On a side note, I've been trying out the gitaxian probes and have also been unimpressed. Most of the time you can tell if you need to counter something and knowing what is in the hand hasn't helped much. Being able to cycle for 2 life isn't all bad but thought scour I feel gives more options.

Yeah, I agree. Could you post the link to Wilson's article?

Also probe seems mediocre. Has anyone found evidence to the contrary?

[Tammit67]

Yeah, I agree. Could you post the link to Wilson's article?

Also probe seems mediocre. Has anyone found evidence to the contrary?

If you look at my post 2 above yours, click the list link and it will take you to the report. It was ok for me, but not necessarily impressive

[undone]

Alright so M14 has started to be spoiled and I noticed this card.
Young Pyromancer 1R
Creature - Human Shaman Uncommon
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a 1/1 red Elemental creature token onto the battlefield.
2/1

I sat and thought about it. It doesn't have the raw power of goyf it's true but it seems like a viable sideboard card that gives this deck a way to do something it's never been able to do before, generate card advantage. Or I could just be wrong and it could be dryad 2.0

[wcm8]

Alright so M14 has started to be spoiled and I noticed this card.
Young Pyromancer 1R
Creature - Human Shaman Uncommon
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a 1/1 red Elemental creature token onto the battlefield.
2/1

I sat and thought about it. It doesn't have the raw power of goyf it's true but it seems like a viable sideboard card that gives this deck a way to do something it's never been able to do before, generate card advantage. Or I could just be wrong and it could be dryad 2.0

I'm with you on this one. I definitely intend on giving this guy some testing. He's like a mini Talrand, Sky Summoner.

[Barbed Blightning]

Alright so M14 has started to be spoiled and I noticed this card.
Young Pyromancer 1R
Creature - Human Shaman Uncommon
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a 1/1 red Elemental creature token onto the battlefield.
2/1

I sat and thought about it. It doesn't have the raw power of goyf it's true but it seems like a viable sideboard card that gives this deck a way to do something it's never been able to do before, generate card advantage. Or I could just be wrong and it could be dryad 2.0

I agree, it sounds interesting. When would you side it in?

[wcm8]

I agree, it sounds interesting. When would you side it in?

Just looking at Tier 1, I think he could be good against the following:
UW Miracles / Esper Blade (allows you to pressure them without committing too many creatures to the board at once, and dodges Rest in Peace)
Jund (to an extent.. it gives you a bit of potential card advantage and might help against Liliana activations)
Maverick / Merfolk / Goblins (Pyromancer is potentially like RUG's own version of Lingering Souls. Although there's unlikely to be access to Jitte, being able to chump block a big Knight or Ooze or whatever indefinitely while beating down with a Delver could win games)
BUG Cascade / Team America (their removal is mostly 1-for-1, so a Pyromancer that goes unanswered for a turn or two could steal games.)

RUG has a very tight 75, so I'm not entirely sure if he will make the cut. However, I think it fits all the criteria for Legacy playability: a unique and powerful effect at an aggressive cost. Like Snapcaster Mage, simply being a 2/1 body also means he's never *entirely* dead.

Compare him to Quirion Dryad or Kiln Fiend. The reason these sort of 'Grow' creatures aren't playable is because a single removal spell undoes the effort invested into them. Unlike those, Pyromancer simply rewards you for playing the game, and even if he's removed the tokens will stay on board. Unchecked, the damage ramps up pretty quickly. On turn 2 when you drop him, you might even be casting Daze and/or Force of Will right off the bat. I think this guy will find a home *somewhere* in Legacy, and RUG seems to make a lot of sense since he seems to fit into the aggro/control gameplan and the deck is already running about ~30 cards that will fulfill the function of generating tokens.

[SansSerif]

Against Punishing Jund, I am wondering which is a better target for our Wastelands - duals or grove?

Grove seems like a nice target as it is a mana source and allows punishing fire to return. On the other hand, taking out Bayou or Badlands will keep them off of Black.

[ironclad8690]

Against Punishing Jund, I am wondering which is a better target for our Wastelands - duals or grove?

Grove seems like a nice target as it is a mana source and allows punishing fire to return. On the other hand, taking out Bayou or Badlands will keep them off of Black.

Duals allow you to submerge (in most cases), whereas grove does not. If you take out grove and keep them off of green, they have to play a bayou and open themselves up for the submerge (if they don't make you discard it first).

[Kylehyde]

What's the general consensus on Fire // Ice? I've done some very cool RUGish things with it, but I have a feeling those are rarer than I'm remembering.

[Water_Wizard]

What's the general consensus on Fire // Ice? I've done some very cool RUGish things with it, but I have a feeling those are rarer than I'm remembering.

If you expect to see a lot of Thalia and Lingering Souls tokens, run Forked Bolt. Same with Tribal.

Fire/Ice is better vs. decks like BUG and Sneak and Show (although you are probably siding it out game 2 vs. both). It is an instant, can pitch to FOW, can tap down a land or a large creature (Tarmogoyf/Griselbrand), and it cantrips.

In an open or unknown meta, Fire/Ice is better because it has more range. Forked Bolt is better vs. creature-based decks. Dismember is good if you are going to be facing down Goyfs and KotRs (and then add Submerge post-board).

Personally, I'm running Fire/Ice now, but if Maverick picks up, those will become Forked Bolts.

[Barbed Blightning]

If you expect to see a lot of Thalia and Lingering Souls tokens, run Forked Bolt. Same with Tribal.

Fire/Ice is better vs. decks like BUG and Sneak and Show (although you are probably siding it out game 2 vs. both). It is an instant, can pitch to FOW, can tap down a land or a large creature (Tarmogoyf/Griselbrand), and it cantrips.

In an open or unknown meta, Fire/Ice is better because it has more range. Forked Bolt is better vs. creature-based decks. Dismember is good if you are going to be facing down Goyfs and KotRs (and then add Submerge post-board).

Personally, I'm running Fire/Ice now, but if Maverick picks up, those will become Forked Bolts.

Basically QFT.

I'm still tweaking my flexes for Baltimore next week. Currently have:

3 spell pierce
1 spell snare
2 fire// ice OR 1 forked bolt, 1 vapor snag

Any ideas for Baltimore?

[Water_Wizard]

Basically QFT.

I'm still tweaking my flexes for Baltimore next week. Currently have:

3 spell pierce
1 spell snare
2 fire// ice OR 1 forked bolt, 1 vapor snag

Any ideas for Baltimore?

I've been running 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Spell Snare and 1 Fire/Ice with 3 Submerge, 2 Rough/Tumble, and 2 Sulfur Elemental in the sideboard.

My list is tuned for a Esper/Jund meta and to stop Bob, SFM, Hymn, Goyf, and Lingering Souls tokens.

[dunk]

In an open or unknown meta, Fire/Ice is better because it has more range. Forked Bolt is better vs. creature-based decks.

Actually I think the opposite is true - if you don't know what to expect, run Forked Bolt because you will be happy to have as many 1 mana answers to Deathrite Shaman as possible... in general, costing 1 mana supports the deck way better in nearly every situation. It's more likely that you will have to destroy something early than needing it badly as a Force target.
Actually I think Fire // Ice is a card of the past...

[Brainstormer]

I'm a long time RUG and Stoneblade player, and recently I've picked up combo for the first time(ANT and TES in particular).

I recently sold my Esper stuff, thinking I needed to consolidate my deck choices, narrow my focus, and really zero in on two decks. The logical choice for me at the time was to keep what seemed like the two proactive decks. So I kept RUG and Storm. Although I am a long time control player, I think in legacy you should be doing proactive powerful things. A flying Nactal backed up by tons of counter magic just seems way better to me than two spirit tokens on turn three.

Since I parted with my stuff, the rule changes for M14 were announced, making JTMS a much better card than he was before. In addition, Deathblade, a deck I poo-poo'd at has emerged, and looks more real everyday. I don't regret keeping RUG because I just like the game plan so much better, but I'm wondering how these two shifts effect us. My meta is combo (Show and Tell, Reanimator, and ANT), creature decks (Junk, Maverick) and some some, but not much, control (a Shardless BUG player, and until recently, me on Esper), so I am not super knowledgable about playing against Jace. What I have done against the BUG player is to prioritize countering Jace and Visions, and kind of just ignore everything else (except for making super sure to kill shaman, of course).

I have never really been on the other side of the RUG/Esper matchup since I was the only one in my meta with the decks, and I played Esper when I loaned out RUG (because no one wanted to play Blade). When no one that needs to borrow a deck shows up at my shop for legacy, I play RUG which leaves a big Esper sized hole in the tournament. So I'm not super sure how to play against a Jace deck that isn't BUG. and I feel like its gonna be some blade variant that most benefits from this rule change. Also BUG is now better (and is already a tough match-up), but I feel like death blade will be favored for not having to lean on visions to beat other blue decks.

Does an almost certain uptick in Jace decks trouble us? Do we go back up to 2-3 Pyro/Red blasts (I've gone down to 1, as it has been pretty bad for me expect against the stray Fish deck, and sometimes miracles)? Am I wrong about JTMS decks being kind of scary for us (especially death blade)? Are there other ways to deal with JTMS that I should consider? Any tips?

[lordofthepit]

I do not consider Jace, the Mind Sculptor a problem for this deck. Trying to resolve that card through our mana denial, Dazes, Pierces, and REBs is very difficult. They would also have to stick it on an almost empty board to have it be effective (and it can't deal with Mongoose at all), plus any bounce activation opens Jace up to our burn.

Nonetheless, there are some Jace decks that represent unfavorable matchups (BUG, RiP Miracles, etc.). Others are favorable.

I also do not think Jace becomes better as a result of M14 rules. Unless you're planning to cast a JtMS into one on the battlefield just to get an extra activation, nothing changes except in the mirror (where it's a zero-sum game).

[Barbed Blightning]

I do not consider Jace, the Mind Sculptor a problem for this deck. Trying to resolve that card through our mana denial, Dazes, Pierces, and REBs is very difficult. They would also have to stick it on an almost empty board to have it be effective (and it can't deal with Mongoose at all), plus any bounce activation opens Jace up to our burn.

Nonetheless, there are some Jace decks that represent unfavorable matchups (BUG, RiP Miracles, etc.). Others are favorable.

I also do not think Jace becomes better as a result of M14 rules. Unless you're planning to cast a JtMS into one on the battlefield just to get an extra activation, nothing changes except in the mirror (where it's a zero-sum game).

As of now, the only walker to benefit from the change realistically is Lilly, since she uses -2 more than jace does his -1. One mana less also helps.

As far as death blade is concerned, stifle is still very good vs them. And with shard less, you can stifle the last suspend trigger leaving it permanently exiled