Changes to the planeswalker uniqueness rule

[Esper3k]

While what you say is true, I don't understand why there needs to be an even playing field if one player went to great lengths in resolving Jace while the other player mostly ignored what was happening in the game, hit his 4 land drops due to statistical inevitability, then cast Jace.

If they ignored your Jace, that's fine - you still have all of your own preparations in order to stop their Jace in addition to having landed yours first.

I don't understand why an opponent resolving Jace won't still be a point of contention, though. Like, in the mirror people are just going to turn into Oprah and go "YOU get a Jace! I get a Jace! YOU and YOU and YOU get a Jace!"

So wait, because you can no longer blow up an opponent's JTMS with your own, you're going to let it just resolve? If anything the presence of a JTMS should be an even more significant issue since you're down an answer.

What am I not getting about this. If you're "not caring" about an opponent's Jace just because you can play one too, that sounds like you don't care if an opponent can Brainstorm for free every turn, which sounds like a good way to lose more games than you should.

Yeah, exactly. I actually like it more because it's no longer all important to land your Jace first and get a Brainstorm out of it. Now, if you land yours second, you can still match your opponent on card advantage yet they still get some advantage for getting theirs down first.

It actually makes Jace a little easier to deal with, imo because now you can have your own Jace instead of being forced to use it as a Vindicate but they end up still getting up a card on you.

How exactly is it diminished though? They're still playing Jace, while not quite answer-or-die that turn, will need to be dealt with quickly.

They way you put it, there were 3 things that would answer Jace: counters, evasive creatures, and your own Jace.
Now that list is reduced to just 2.

I see it as MORE tension building to 4 mana, get that Force ready, prime that Tar Pit, whatever. After they plop down their Jace and storm, you follow by mirroring them, still doesn't answer their Jace. It's still there, doing what it does so infamously.

Seems like it will be with out a doubt different, but less? I'm not so sure.

Your own Jace still answers their Jace - it actually answers it better now since you can actually match them on card advantage instead of them getting card advantage on you like they currently do if you play your Jace to Planeswalker Rule them.

[Darkenslight]

On the plus side, it now opens up Jace as a Constructed Deck type. :D

[FieryBalrog]

Recognizing an umbrella is dumb as shit. With the current technology unless you give a computer an image of an umbrella under every condition, shape, color, type, position and lighting it can't recognize an umbrella most of the time. Your point is?

Chewbacca defense at work? Good job.

[Higgs]

Nope. It's just you failing to realize the direct relevance of the example because you don't understand AI and the comparison Mr. Mcdonalds drew with solving the complexity of Go.

[FieryBalrog]

Nope. It's just you failing to realize the direct relevance of the example because you don't understand AI and the comparison Mr. Mcdonalds drew with solving the complexity of Go.

I understood it perfectly. It was still a completely irrelevant response to his point which you failed to address. Unlike recognizing an umbrella, playing Go is trivial for neither humans nor AI despite the elegant simplicity in rules set. Unfortunately you were too busy being clever to actually address the point.

[Higgs]

Discussion on that point passed x pages ago, feels like you're just in the mood to pick up personal fights. There's plenty of it going on in the reprints threads.

McDonalds' example was on Go being simple on the surface while being incredibly complex on its entirety, such that even a computer can't be programmed to beat humans, and then to draw a parallel between that and Magic. My point was just because a computer can't perform a function or solve a problem that doesn't mean it's incredibly complex, because human brain and AI thinks differently, therefore his example and the parallel he drew was N/A.

[Barook]

Now Jitte doesn't answer Jitte anymore, can we expect Manriki-Gusari as a SB 1-of if you run SFM? Answers both enemy Jittes and Batterskulls.

[Higgs]

I'm glad someone brought it up. I've been thinking about Jitte and considering even Punishing Fire mirrors are a thing in Legacy Jitte and obligatory artifact removal has the potential to become the new trend. I'm not sure if people are realizing the full potential of Jitte going forward.

[Megadeus]

Jitte will be very very annoying. It is already borderline impossible for an aggro deck to beat it... Now it is whoever gets counters on their jitte first! I know SFM is a thing, but do you guys think a package that plays STeelshapers Gift will see some play? I know it is a modern card mostly, but searching up a jitte a turn faster may win you the jitte war.

[(nameless one)]

Maybe with this change, red will be a better color.

Think about it, burn cards wouldn't be inferior to creature destruction/exile because it can play a major role in Jace mirror.

If you're running a Jace deck and you're worrying against the opposing Jace, would the red splash (for Pyroblast/REB) help? Miracle decks started doing it.

[TsumiBand]

Jitte will be very very annoying. It is already borderline impossible for an aggro deck to beat it... Now it is whoever gets counters on their jitte first! I know SFM is a thing, but do you guys think a package that plays STeelshapers Gift will see some play? I know it is a modern card mostly, but searching up a jitte a turn faster may win you the jitte war.

Any deck that would play SSG or SFM may not need to worry about it; there's plenty of answers to Jitte in that color. Hell, people might actually start running fringe junk like Suppression Field to keep Jitte and other equipment on lockdown, now that every color can't just pay to turn their own Jittes into Shatters.. That's a card looking for a deck if I ever saw one.

[Megadeus]

Supression field is such a beating lol

[pavlaugh]

Hell, people might actually start running fringe junk like Suppression Field to keep Jitte and other equipment on lockdown, now that every color can't just pay to turn their own Jittes into Shatters.. That's a card looking for a deck if I ever saw one.

I'd like to see me some renewed Null Rod action. Has the added benefit of shutting off mana abilities (LED, Moxes, Petal, artifact lands) and other nifty artifact cards/decks (affinity, mud, belcher); and of course, it's colorless! (RUG, BUG, Jund, etc.). No so good against the planeswalkers, though.

[TsumiBand]

I'd like to see me some renewed Null Rod action. Has the added benefit of shutting off mana abilities (LED, Moxes, Petal, artifact lands) and other nifty artifact cards/decks (affinity, mud, belcher); and of course, it's colorless! (RUG, BUG, Jund, etc.). No so good against the planeswalkers, though.

Yeah Null Rod and friends are pretty cool, but Suppression Field taxes so fucking many things.

Fetchlands
Wasteland
Aether Vial
Planeswalker loyalty abilities
Equip costs/abilities
DRS/Lavamancer/SFM's 1W ability/whatever else relevant creature abilities besides their mana abilities

Plus, if you're playing a deck full of like Glittering Lion and Knight of the Holy Nimbus and whatnot, your opponent will have a much harder time killing them! Don't play those cards, they are terrible.

[Shawon]

Now Jitte doesn't answer Jitte anymore, can we expect Manriki-Gusari as a SB 1-of if you run SFM? Answers both enemy Jittes and Batterskull?

Probably, that's what I'm trying now in my Esper Affinity list with SFM. Leonin Bola is also a neat Equipment that can stop a Jitte-carrier or Batterskull and doubles up as a hoser to Emrakul. Leonin Bola is also pretty sick with your own Batterskull, as you can attack with Batterskull and tap itself to tap out an opponent's blocker, deal 4 and gain 4. You can use the same trick with Manriki-Gusari if your Batterskull is going to be blocked by a Jitte-carrier.

Tower of the Magistrate is another reliable answer to Jitte and Batterskull.

EDIT: Reality Ripple. Target Germ or Jitte-carrier, the Equipment phases out permanently.

[joven]

EDIT: Reality Ripple. Target Germ or Jitte-carrier, the Equipment phases out permanently.

???
As far as I know nothing phases out permanently (at least according to the old Mirage rules). Phasing is a coming and going.
An exception could be tokens, although I'm not sure because the Phasing rules got changed from actually being out of play to just be treated as out of play. Luckily no one plays those old cards with Phasing anymore.
I'm pretty sure the Equipment won't phase out if you cast Reality Ripple on a Germ token. The Equipment will be unattached though.

[lyracian]

I'm pretty sure the Equipment won't phase out if you cast Reality Ripple on a Germ token. The Equipment will be unattached though.

Go read the phasing rules again.
Tokens that Phase out cease to exist.
Equipment and Aura's phase out with the creature they are attached too and phase in with it again.
Put the two rules together and Jitte/Batterskull phase out and never come back.

[TsumiBand]

???
As far as I know nothing phases out permanently (at least according to the old Mirage rules). Phasing is a coming and going.
An exception could be tokens, although I'm not sure because the Phasing rules got changed from actually being out of play to just be treated as out of play. Luckily no one plays those old cards with Phasing anymore.
I'm pretty sure the Equipment won't phase out if you cast Reality Ripple on a Germ token. The Equipment will be unattached though.

I was under the idea that when a permanent phases out, attached permanents such as Equipment and Auras phase out with it, and phase in with the permanent.

This is probably why phasing is so ass, is because people don't know or care how it works, because it is Phasing.

702.24f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.

....

702.24k Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.

[Deviruchi]

702.24f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.

702.24k Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.

Also: Sapphire Charm > Reality Ripple vs Germ token

[SirTylerGalt]

Reality Ripple is indeed a nice answer to a Batterskull-equipped germ token.

But Jitte will only phase out permanently if it is attached to a token. It won't work if it's attached to a real creature.