[Deck] Death and Taxes

[DavidHernandez]

Perhaps harsh, but I fail to see how this card could be considered constructed playable. I was rude. This is the established decks subforum and it's clearly stated it's for discussing "finished decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested." There is absolutely no way Scepter of Empires was thoroughly tested and proved to be an asset. I will drop it though, maybe we can move forward with productive discussion.

...and that's an answer that helps me a lot. Thank you.

I think this deck should be in Decks to Beat.

I will move forward with faith in the experience of the last few posts, including yours of course, and drop the Scepter. For clarification, should I be posting "innovations" or potential/concepts in a different thread? If so, what's this thread for? I want to do this right.

Thanks

[Finn]

No. This is the place to discuss. Ben was a bit harsh, but the sceptre is really a terrible card too.

Cursed Scroll has been discussed briefly. I recall that afterward, thinking that it was not going to work out. It is a card that gives a modicum of inevitability to an aggro deck as it otherwise runs out of steam. D+T is not an aggro deck and does not typically need inevitability.

Gut Shot is liked by some because after Swords to Plowshares there really is no best spot removal in white that is priced right and appropriate for the deck. I never liked it. If I am guessing right, the presence of Deathrite Shaman and its 2 toughness (could they have possibly made that card any better?) will be reducing the attraction to Gut Shot significantly in the coming months.

In my experience with Preacher, he is win-more. For the same price, you usually want Mangara anyway. Still, if you have continued success with it, please tell us all. Evolving...Evolving...

"Decks to Beat" are calculated. This deck has never really come particularly close. Even following its ownership of GP Strasbourg at the hands of capable Danish pilots recently, there have been no large scale high placings of it since. Hence it's relatively low score in the ranking calculation. I can't say for sure why that has happened (I always figured that more exposure would clue people in), but some speculate that the deck is just too unintuitive for most players. Or it may just seem bland or something. I dunno.

[Zupponn]

I've always felt that D&T was a tad bit too complicated for your average magic player to play well. It's a deck that requires the player to have a good understanding of legacy, which many players don't. The D&T player needs to know every deck in legacy and what it's trying to do in order to beat it, which is a lot of studying that many people would prefer to avoid. This might be why decks like storm combo and Sneak Show are popular.

[MGB]

I've always felt that D&T was a tad bit too complicated for your average magic player to play well. It's a deck that requires the player to have a good understanding of legacy, which many players don't. The D&T player needs to know every deck in legacy and what it's trying to do in order to beat it, which is a lot of studying that many people would prefer to avoid. This might be why decks like storm combo and Sneak Show are popular.

It's a deck that requires you to be completely satisfied with the concept of playing a "fair" deck.

In a format full of broken strategies that reward rather than punish players for only tangential knowledge of the format, playing the "fair" deck can often feel demoralizing to a player unless he has absolutely mastered every match-up and every odd scenario and every line of play with that fair deck.

[DavidHernandez]

No. This is the place to discuss. Ben was a bit harsh, but the sceptre is really a terrible card too.

Cursed Scroll has been discussed briefly. I recall that afterward, thinking that it was not going to work out. It is a card that gives a modicum of inevitability to an aggro deck as it otherwise runs out of steam. D+T is not an aggro deck and does not typically need inevitability.

Gut Shot is liked by some because after Swords to Plowshares there really is no best spot removal in white that is priced right and appropriate for the deck. I never liked it. If I am guessing right, the presence of Deathrite Shaman and its 2 toughness (could they have possibly made that card any better?) will be reducing the attraction to Gut Shot significantly in the coming months.

In my experience with Preacher, he is win-more. For the same price, you usually want Mangara anyway. Still, if you have continued success with it, please tell us all. Evolving...Evolving...

"Decks to Beat" are calculated. This deck has never really come particularly close. Even following its ownership of GP Strasbourg at the hands of capable Danish pilots recently, there have been no large scale high placings of it since. Hence it's relatively low score in the ranking calculation. I can't say for sure why that has happened (I always figured that more exposure would clue people in), but some speculate that the deck is just too unintuitive for most players. Or it may just seem bland or something. I dunno.

Thanks Dan.

Cursed Scroll: Yeah, I don't like it due to the mana-hungry nature of the activation.

Gut Shot: I don't like the 1-damage, but I love the free, instant speed.

Preacher: The dude is just fun to play. I've been in the game since '94 and this guy is just fun. I like the utility too, and it won me matches, and allowed me to take 1st place last week, so I'm happy to have it in the deck in multiples. In my case it wasn't 'win more' -- it was lose if you don't have this guy. I also run 3 Mangara -- I love that card and it never seems like a bad draw.

Decks to Beat: I didn't know they were calculated. I will say that having become familiar with the way D&T runs, I think it's one of the best decks I've ever encountered and ever piloted. I think it is one of the best control decks in the format, and may actually be THE best. Not a single counterspell, yet it locks the opponent quickly and never really lets them play in the game. The deck certainly requires that you know what the pieces do and how they interact, and it's critical that you know what the other decks in the format do (and how they operate).

Ben said: So assuming they don't kill you turn 1, and you play Thalia turn 2, then on turn 4 you get to play out a recursive source of 1 damage to the face, as opposed to any other creature card in the deck that will inflict more damage to them at less mana investment, while potentially disrupting their ability to combo against you?

It would be turn 3, not turn 4, and the damage would be dealt on the same turn. But I understand what you're saying here. One of the reasons I'm looking for an answer, or alternative, is that I've had trouble with Reanimator and with Punishing Loam. I find myself hitting these guys down to 2 life, and then they make a comeback and I lose...and the games are so long that we end up at time and I lose the match. If I had access to something that did direct damage I would have won 3 of these matches over the past 4 weeks. It's been frustrating.

Reanimator is animating elesh norn, grand cenobite and my board gets permanently wiped. This happened twice in scenarios where I had the opponent down to 2 life. Gut Shot would not be enough, and dropping dudes on the table became impossible.

Punishing Loam was similar, 2 matches where I had him down to 1-life once and 2-life another time, only to have him make a comeback and take the matches. Gut Shot would have been enough in one match, but not the other.

As Finn mentioned, Deathrite Shaman is another reason Gut Shot isn't good enough, in my opinion. I see a LOT of Shaman's in our store. I'm trying to find a better answer. TiMeWaLk's comment that "Scepter only hits the opponent" is also very relevant. I WOULD like to be able to hit creatures. However, that's not where I seem to be running into problems...it's in finishing off the opponent when I only need to do 2 points of damage.

Perhaps my answer is with Blind Obedience or Basilica Guards in the board. Blind Obedience might actually fit what I'm looking for, and would also be a Tempo generator.

Thoughts on that? If there is already conversation about that, I will read up on it, but I don't recall seeing that in the 136 pages of this thread.

Thanks,
Dave

[Anarky87]

It would be turn 3, not turn 4

If you played the Thalia on turn 2, then Scepter would cost 4 to play, so you'd have to wait till turn 4 to play it.

[DavidHernandez]

If you played the Thalia on turn 2, then Scepter would cost 4 to play, so you'd have to wait till turn 4 to play it.

Right! I missed that. Thanks.

[Claymore]

Cursed Scroll seems to answer all of those situations. It is mana intensive, yes, but you do not want to be spending an early turn dropping Scepter and having zero (or usually negative) board impact where you could instead drop Mangara, Preacher, SFM (or activate SFM turn 3). Plus, Scepter gets "turned off" by an active Shaman, where Scroll can kill the Shaman - or SFM, or Confidant, Jitte-equipped fellow, Delver, etc.

Overall, both Scepter and Scroll will be used as a late game finishers, except Scroll hits harder and has much higher flexibility.

From my observations, Death and Taxes is far too mana hungry early on to be playing around with Blind Obedience and it can't reliably dick around with a self-Thalia tax, and your end-game clock can get compromised by drawing lands or wanting to activate Vial instead of playing something. The CITP Tapped seems relevant for when you aggro out, however.

[from Cairo]

One of the reasons I'm looking for an answer, or alternative, is that I've had trouble with Reanimator and with Punishing Loam. I find myself hitting these guys down to 2 life, and then they make a comeback and I lose...and the games are so long that we end up at time and I lose the match. If I had access to something that did direct damage I would have won 3 of these matches over the past 4 weeks. It's been frustrating.

Reanimator is animating elesh norn, grand cenobite and my board gets permanently wiped. This happened twice in scenarios where I had the opponent down to 2 life. Gut Shot would not be enough, and dropping dudes on the table became impossible.

Punishing Loam was similar, 2 matches where I had him down to 1-life once and 2-life another time, only to have him make a comeback and take the matches. Gut Shot would have been enough in one match, but not the other.

Reanimator is historically one of our best match ups. The only games I can recall losing to it are on the back of Tidespout Tyrant. Karakas answers any of their Legendary reanimation targets and even if they do get to 'wrath' your board with a recurred Elesh Norn, bouncing it back to their hand should buy plenty of time to reestablish board presence. Post SB you gain graveyard hate to keep them off reanimation and Oblivion Ring can answer their Show and Tell plan (Oblivion Ring is also relevant in that it can remove opposing Pithing Needle if they try to shut down Karakas).

I haven't actually played against Punishing Fire Loam before. You're referring to the recent iteration of 39/43 Lands that runs Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire, but otherwise is the old shell of Explorations, Mox Diamonds and utility lands? My experience against Lands has been to attack them with graveyard hate as well. Rishadan Port can keep Maze of Iths tapped and Wasteland has to be aimed at Tabernacle (in this case hitting Grove also seems desirable). I don't think this is a particularly favored match up and adding Punishing Fire to the mix certainly doesn't help. Sticking Mother of Runes turn 1 or getting it in off of Aether Vial when the opponent doesn't represent 1R should help against P Fire. The Thalia + Karakas combination should also tie up substantial mana, while leaving them with minimal gain. IE Thalia on deck with a Vial at 2 and Karakas, where they are spending 2RR to P Fire and 'buyback,' if targeting Thalia you can return it with Karakas, replay, etc.

Tangentially related, I do not think that Leyline of the Void is our best option for graveyard hate. Rest In Peace accomplishes essentially the same thing without the constraints attached to Leylines, namely mulliganing to them and drawing blanks at inopportune times. Surgical Extraction is often a good answer to these strategies and dodges the anti-hate 'disenchant' effects that are frequently boarded in to deal with permanent based disruption. Grafdigger's Cage is another option that can come down earlier and works against Reanimator, Dredge and the like, though not against Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam.

It unclear to me what your sample sizes are with these match ups, but I would not be discouraged by the fact that on some occasions you got your opponents very close to dead and they stabilized against you. With further practice and knowledge gained through playtesting you'll be able to close some of those gaps.

My main point against the Scepter (Cursed Scroll/whatever recursive source of non-creature damage to the opponent) is that it is not a direction this deck wants or needs to pursue. Death and Taxes is a Thalia based control deck and in building around her our strongest resources are going to be creatures, this is where we can break the symmetry of her effect. Rather than playing one of the above mentioned cards, one could place another disruptive creature onto the table and get far more milage out it due to the synergies with the cards the shell is already utilizing (Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, etc).

[DavidHernandez]

Reanimator is historically one of our best match ups. The only games I can recall losing to it are on the back of Tidespout Tyrant. Karakas answers any of their Legendary reanimation targets and even if they do get to 'wrath' your board with a recurred Elesh Norn, bouncing it back to their hand should buy plenty of time to reestablish board presence. Post SB you gain graveyard hate to keep them off reanimation and Oblivion Ring can answer their Show and Tell plan (Oblivion Ring is also relevant in that it can remove opposing Pithing Needle if they try to shut down Karakas).

Yes, I agree this should be a good matchup. Perhaps it's the luck of the draw (both matches went 3 games) along with still getting accustomed to the deck. I just couldn't find what I needed. Pithing Needle was problematic (he runs 4 in the board). In these 2 matches, I have been one or two turns from winning.

I haven't actually played against Punishing Fire Loam before. You're referring to the recent iteration of 39/43 Lands that runs Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire, but otherwise is the old shell of Explorations, Mox Diamonds and utility lands? My experience against Lands has been to attack them with graveyard hate as well. Rishadan Port can keep Maze of Iths tapped and Wasteland has to be aimed at Tabernacle (in this case hitting Grove also seems desirable). I don't think this is a particularly favored match up and adding Punishing Fire to the mix certainly doesn't help. Sticking Mother of Runes turn 1 or getting it in off of Aether Vial when the opponent doesn't represent 1R should help against P Fire. The Thalia + Karakas combination should also tie up substantial mana, while leaving them with minimal gain. IE Thalia on deck with a Vial at 2 and Karakas, where they are spending 2RR to P Fire and 'buyback,' if targeting Thalia you can return it with Karakas, replay, etc.

Yes, you described the deck correctly. It also runs Knight of the Relequary and Dark Confidant. It's a tough match. Again, I have come down to the third game and being 1 swing away from the win. I beat this deck on Thursday with Leyline of the Void. He runs 3 Abrupt Decay in the main along with a 4th in the board, so when I was running Rest In Peace he always had the answer. Running Leyline blew him away. When I ran the RIPs and he Decay'd them, his recurring Wastelands ate my Ports, and Maze would recur as well (in the instance I did waste it). It's a strong deck and he's a good player. He finished second place the night I won. Your suggestions are very helpful. I'll make sure to review again before tomorrow nights tournament.

Tangentially related, I do not think that Leyline of the Void is our best option for graveyard hate. Rest In Peace accomplishes essentially the same thing without the constraints attached to Leylines, namely mulliganing to them and drawing blanks at inopportune times. Surgical Extraction is often a good answer to these strategies and dodges the anti-hate 'disenchant' effects that are frequently boarded in to deal with permanent based disruption. Grafdigger's Cage is another option that can come down earlier and works against Reanimator, Dredge and the like, though not against Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam.

I actually like the Voids. I'm just afraid of drawing the second or third one....LOL. However, it really shut down a couple of decks on Thursday, and Abrupt Decay can't touch it. This is the main reason I decided to use Voids...Abrupt Decay is rampant here. It seems like it's in every deck...Nic Fit, Loam, Elves, Dredge, etc., and while I won't run RIP against Elves, the decks that tend to hurt me (graveyard based) have a very hard time with Leyline of the Void. For now, I will keep testing it and keep it in my board. I'm still on a high from the win last week, and Void was a big part of that.

It unclear to me what your sample sizes are with these match ups, but I would not be discouraged by the fact that on some occasions you got your opponents very close to dead and they stabilized against you. With further practice and knowledge gained through playtesting you'll be able to close some of those gaps.

I completely agree with this.

My main point against the Scepter (Cursed Scroll/whatever recursive source of non-creature damage to the opponent) is that it is not a direction this deck wants or needs to pursue. Death and Taxes is a Thalia based control deck and in building around her our strongest resources are going to be creatures, this is where we can break the symmetry of her effect. Rather than playing one of the above mentioned cards, one could place another disruptive creature onto the table and get far more mileage out it due to the synergies with the cards the shell is already utilizing (Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, etc).

Hm. Okay, this is also particularly helpful. I will look for a "disruptive creature" that can deal damage...and is White......I suppose there's always Icatian Javelineers with Flickerwisp....

Edit.: Inquisitor Exarch!

Very helpful.

Thanks.

Dave

[Zupponn]

On the subject of Gut Shot, I actually find myself not running any in my SB, and opting for a Sunlance instead. Sure, it doesn't hit players, but it does kill a wide variety of creatures that are relevant.

[Darklingske]

If more people start playing the new version of S&T (omniclash I believe it is called), what can we do to make this MU favorable post SB? Preside is already tricky and very dependable on they having a slow hand and we having a god-hand.
I was thinking of putting more ORings in the SB, but that doesn't help against LabManbuilds. Anyone already tried a light green splash for Teeg?

[Lejay]

If more people start playing the new version of S&T (omniclash I believe it is called), what can we do to make this MU favorable post SB? Preside is already tricky and very dependable on they having a slow hand and we having a god-hand.
I was thinking of putting more ORings in the SB, but that doesn't help against LabManbuilds. Anyone already tried a light green splash for Teeg?

The best move for you, Death and Taxes players, is to painfully endure the pain doing nothing, waiting and waiting more, and then show and tell will be banned.

[Zupponn]

Honestly, I'm not sure if it's ever going to be popular enough to bother with anything else in the SB. Canonist, ORing, Mangara, and Thalia all seem good though. If you're running into a lot of it, those cards are all places to start.

[DavidHernandez]

If more people start playing the new version of S&T (omniclash I believe it is called), what can we do to make this MU favorable post SB? Preside is already tricky and very dependable on they having a slow hand and we having a god-hand.
I was thinking of putting more ORings in the SB, but that doesn't help against LabManbuilds. Anyone already tried a light green splash for Teeg?

I've beaten the deck twice now with D&T. Once with Preacher, and more recently with Inquisitor Exarch. I understand that Inquisitor only hits the opponent, and not creatures, but that's where I have the need in my area. Also, it's pretty cool to watch their face go pale when Flickerwisp targets the Inquisitor.

I run Teeg in my sideboard. I run two Savannah's main. I'm thinking of running a second Teeg in the board.

I finished in third place Thursday night because I lost to the winner of the tourney...who played: Reanimator. I just can't seem to beat that deck. Again, I got swept by Elesh Norn in game one, followed by Elsesh Norn and Iona in game two. Graveyard hate got bounced back to my hand. Putrid Imps refilled his GY. My Karakas wasn't enough for the board sweepers and number of reanimate spells he runs.

SO FRUSTRATING.

I'm starting to think 4 RIP and 4 Surgical Extractions are needed. I'm also thinking an alternative win condition may be necessary. Perhaps 2x Helm of Obedience with the RIPS?

I'm only losing to Reanimator. It seems everything else loses to me, though I have not had an opportunity to play against ANT in the last 4 tournaments.

[Lejay]

Always remember that if a meta isn't prepared enough for it, reanimator is the best deck in the format.
If you want to hate it faerie macabre is the best choice. You deal with the show and tell plan pretty well already so you just have to make the surest you'll be able to deal with standard reanimation.

[DavidHernandez]

Always remember that if a meta isn't prepared enough for it, reanimator is the best deck in the format.
If you want to hate it faerie macabre is the best choice. You deal with the show and tell plan pretty well already so you just have to make the surest you'll be able to deal with standard reanimation.

Hm. A friend of mine also recommended Faerie Macabre. I may have to try it. Since it's a discard, it isn't being cast and therefore cannot be countered, correct?

Thanks for that idea.

By the way, a Judge made a ruling in my favor when I used a Preacher to steal a Geist of Saint Traft, which has Hexproof. The ruling was that the Preacher targeted the opponent, who could legally choose the Geist. The ruling is " When you activate the ability, you choose an opponent, then that opponent chooses the target."

I beat him to death with his own Geist. LOL. Preacher gets better every game I play...

Dave

[L10]

Counterspells that target spells can't target Faerie Macabre's activated ability because it's not a spell. Stifle on the other hand can target Faerie Macabre's activated ability.

By the way, Preacher is pretty legitimately good. I was surprised the amount of quality converts I was able to proselytize.

[DavidHernandez]

Counterspells that target spells can't target Faerie Macabre's activated ability because it's not a spell. Stifle on the other hand can target Faerie Macabre's activated ability.

By the way, Preacher is pretty legitimately good. I was surprised the amount of quality converts I was able to proselytize.

RE: Faerie -- thanks for that info. I didn't think about Stifle or Trickbind.

RE: Preacher -- I'm glad you tried this out! I love him in the deck.

[Finn]

I believe you benefited from a bad ruling, David. You still control the activated ability. You opponent simply makes a decision for it.

hexproof: This creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.