I don't think it helps the deck.
In the early game, you want I deal with threats. You want removal against aggro/creature based strategies. Against control you want to assemble your draw engine to be ahead of the card advantage game. Against combo is tricky since you want to slow them down and win before they recover.
There are already alternatives to the softlock you've mention.
I want talk about a couple of things:
-M14 rules change. The deck runs a fair amount of artifacts. It could be possible that Mox Opal can be used and abused in this deck. It helps Land Tax in tandem with Mox Diamond.
-compared to the old vs new Parfait, the old Parfait used to run Planar Birth to "win" the game. It either achieved this via fueling Sacred Mesa or resolving high end casting cost control elements.
The win part has been fixed by efficient two-card combos but I feel like there is stil something missing from the "from nothing to everything" land count of the old.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forumsOriginally Posted by Kyle
Not sure, a mix between scrub decks (so no worries there, this deck has a very solid matchup against scrub) and some top decks, Storm Combo, Show and Tell combo, Merfolk, and some Cascade decks probably. I think there won't be to much Counterbalance and/or true control. And probably some Elves deck too.
My SB at the moment:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Rule of Law
1 Nevermore
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Moat
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Karmic Justice
Not sure about the the Leyline of Sanctity. Although quite good, it bugs me that I have to bring in 4 all the time.
To be honest, I didn't konw Mox Opal was Legendary until I Read it on the other thread about the new rules. That being said, I wouldn't run it instead of Mox Diamond. Maybe if I need a fifth Mox, Mox Opal would fit the spot, but Chrome Mox atleast makes sure I have the mana directly, not in the mid/late game.
I rather win the game then do cute things. It's a pity it combo's like this doesn't work with Rest in Peace. But if you want to go that way, I rather ditch all Enchantments into the grave and win through Replenish, Seems better then gettin al Plains in play tapped... Or you wan't to go all out on red or something with Burning Wish, so you can tutor for Banefire and finish the opponent. But that's I think far from optimal.
What I do miss is a solid alternative draw engine. At the moment I play with 4 Scroll Rack, 4 Land Tax, 3 Sensei's Divining Top. But Scroll Rack and Top doesn't draw cards. Pursuit of Knowledge is just bad. Scrying Sheets forces you to play at least 20 snow-cards. I'm thinking of adding a number of Tithe to deck, but not sure for what. In the past I could use Isochron Scepter combined with Abeyance. But everyone seems to be agreeing that Isochron Scepter is bad in the deck. Why exactly is the card not good enough anymore (I've been out of the game 2 years)? Shahrazad being banned makes it less powerfull.
.BB.
@ your sideboard:
I would add more Trinisphere. What I remove is based on your discretion.
@ secondary draw engine:
What's wrong with it? SDT sets you up do much with X-for-1, allowing you to find things like Humility and help you set up miracle triggers.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
(nameless one) or anyone else with a running list: I have a Quinn deck that is just collecting dust for a number of reasons. It's fragments and trying too hard to do too many tings and I don't know where I want to take it. It has the Quinn engine, the parfait engine, RiP/Helm, Stoneforge/Batterskull, the result of minor tweaks over the years without a complete update.
Any recommendations on what to commit to or how to move forward on something tangible?
Thanks
I wouldn't concentrate on Stoneforge/Batterskull. That "combo" is only great against aggro and midrange, something the deck is already good at.
I would concentrate on having the win condition within RIP/Helm.
The problem with Quinn (snowland draw) in junction with the Parfait engine is that Quinn requires you to have a lot of snowlands. While Land Tax is limited to just basic land tutoring, your manabase can still have a number of utility lands without hindering the Parfait engine.
Would you like to post your list?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Not so much my list but what happens to be in the sleeves as of this writing. My friends are telling me to just make UW Miracles , but I want to show them that monowhite is best.
14 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Kor Haven
1 Karakas
3 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Scroll Rack
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Land Tax
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon Jura
1 Decree of Justice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Terminus
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
3 Argivian Find
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aura of Silence
1 Powder Keg
1 Nevermore
1 Sacred Ground
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Story Circle
You do try to do alot of things. Some notes: Is 18 snow-lands a little low for running Scrying Sheets? Is Gideon Jura any good?
I think you're trying to do to much. You have alot of win-conditions, no real acceleration to the bombs and for that quite few quick answers. You're deck also looks quite mana hungry for a Land Tax deck. If you want to keep your deck a little like this, IBA posted a list that might be a better start. It used both Scrying Sheet and Land Tax but used Extraplanar Lens to make more use out of Land Tax and being able to get enough mana for the expensive spells.
There is nothing wrong with Sensei's Divining Top, only that it doesn't draw cards. I didn't want to play Tithe instead of Sensei's Divining Top, but in combination.
My engine at the moment is:
4 Land Tax
2 Tithe
4 Scroll Rack
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Not yet sold on Tithe though, but it was just something to try. With Tithe you got 10 shuffle effects in the deck and 6 cards that give you more cards in hand, to better setup Scroll Rack.
.Bb>
Dark Depths is a snow permanent. Might want to use it if you're going for scrying sheets engine.
I'd rather move away from the slow attempt an inevitability that is the Quinn engine, since parfait can generate actual card advantage with Scroll Rack, whereas Quinn only got you card+land. Having a hand full of cards is powerful, but not if they're all Plains.
I feel the main weakness I encounter is lack of shuffle effects to really power Scroll Rack to dig deep consistently. That is the real reasons Stoneforge Mystic stuck around. I will try out Tithe in its place, and move harder into Land Tax with some Mox Diamonds and see how that goes.
In what meta would you recommend Moat in main board vs sideboard vs not at all?
If you want to run shuffle effects, why not run Fetchlands? Maybe Ghost Quarters for added "utility"? Or Flagstones of Trokair? That card is essentially a glorified Plains that comes with a shuffle effect.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Hi, I'm a newbie, who doesn't play tournament mtg due to a lack of time and will to drive for more than an hour. I apologize for my subpar English for I am not a native speaker. With all that said, I'd like to have my W/R decklist diskussed - here it is...
[20 Lands]
9 Plains
1 Mountains
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
3 Lotus Vale
[1 Planeswalker]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
[14 Artifacts]
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Scroll Rack
1 Helm of Obedience
(8 Enchantements)
4 Land Tax
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
[14 Instants]
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Orim's Chant
2 Lightning Helix
2 Boros Charm
2 Argivian Find
[3 Sorceries]
3 Terminus
Sideboard t.b.d.
Notes: Obviously I tried to mix the Parfait and the Scepter Chant strategie (yes, I'm old school!) and rely on three win conditions - RiP/Helm, Elspeth or imprinted damage. This dck is only roughly tested (on the kitchen table, you guessed it).
I think a big concern of parfait decks is their speed, so I tried to make this as cheap as possible. I like the mana base, with Lotus Vale or City of Traitors helping me getting started. You can pitch them into Mox Diamonds, or, later on, their drawback might be erased by Blood Moon.
I strongly reject all arguments for Path to Exile. Remember: it doesn't necessarily trigger your Land Tax - your opponent choses whether to take the extra basic land or not. And if he does, this acceleration might cost you the game (i.e. against Miracle, Maverick), especially as it is anti-synergistic with Blood Moon.
The Lotus Vales are risky (if they are killed is a three land loss), so I protect them with Pithing Needle or the second ability of 2 Boros Charm.
You might think that 2 StoP is too little, but I hate to have too many dead cards against non-creature decks, so I put 2 Lightning Helix in the main for greater flexibility.
I like the 2 Argivian Find, cause I have 22 targets - same goes for the E-Tutor.
Some cards which didn't make the cut, but deserve to be mentioned:
Lotus Petal: this is no tempo deck, so I prefer the Moxes
Porphyry Nodes: isn't Terminus faster and better?
Firestorm: it's definitely worth testing, great with the Tax/Rack engine working...
Wasteland: staple card, but I don't wanna go below 10 basics
Crucible of Worlds: it doesn't help early in the game
Ivory Tower: tell me, is it better than Zuran Orb??
Thanks in advance for any constructive comments. I hope some of you might want to really test it. Although it's not tier 1 stuff, it's still good and fun!
It would be though to fit it in the deck though. Land Tax doesn't really like lands that doesn't tap for mana, and we need to splash green for land searching. Something to think about though.
In the main rarely. Maybe a 1/1 split with Humility. The problems aren't normally the beaters, but the utility creatures. I have a Moat in the sideboard to stop decks that can't do alot against enchantments and you can lock them out completely. Normally comes in with Greater Auramancy. Moat is still a strong card and I think better in stopping Ichorid MD then Humility, unless they play Dread Return.
True, I didn't really wanted more shuffle effects, but now just swapped out 2 Plains for 2 fetches. Is there a minimum of shuffle effects you must play before Top becomes good?
It seems your deck lacks focus. You do know that you still have to sac 2 lands under Blood Moon to Lotus Vale right? Why the 2/2 split between Sensei's Divining Top and Scroll Rack. Isochron Scepter lock is nice, but without the tools to find the instants it might be a liability.
Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshare: It's your preference. Against Maverick and Miracle it might cost you. But other times it's just golden. If the opponent doesn't find a land with Path, you just got removal without drawback. The split between Swords to Plowshare and Lightning Helix is possbile. Does it happen often that you can't kill the target with Hellix?
Argivianan Find got booted in my list because I play 2/3 Rest in Peace MD, but if you only have one, it's a solid card.
Fire Storm is just worse then Terminus now. Both work best with Tax/Rack, but Teminus is a little easier to use.
Ivory Tower / Zuran Orb. Both are bad except if you run into alot of Zoo/Burn decks. I wouldn't play either.
.Bb>
Benie got most of it. A couple things I would like to "talk" about:
Against Ichorid, I'd still prefer Humility over Moat. Ichorids don't die under Humility which don't trigger Bridge from Belows. So no fodder for Dread Returns and they can't combo kill you via Flayer.
On SDT with Fetchlands/Shuffle effects: when I used to run Quinn, I never ran shuffle effects outside of E-tutor, so I wouldn't know. But if you really want a shuffle effect, Flagstones of Trokair post M14 anyone?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Any pronounced problems with Tithe? Seems like a good shuffle effect to reset scroll rack but maintain a healthy hand size to keep digging deep. I'm going to test it in my list, but any test results would be appreciated. I'll also try running 4x Flagstones, but I feel that forcing in shuffles just for the sake of shuffles isn't going to do us any good.
Rest in Peace hoses Goyf, DRS, and a whole slew of graveyard decks, but it also get us one step closer to killing with Helm.
Likewise, SFM shuffles the deck, but also helps power out a quality beater in Batterskull.
In Quinn, Eternal Dragon was my go to shuffler, giving me land drops every turn while recurring himself and then in a pinch or late games, coming through as a 5/5. With RiP as our kill now though, I feel like I'm struggling to find something as good, and only being disappointed. I need a white source to shuffle that is also offering some quality that isn't useless. So far I haven't found it.
How is Flagstone of Trokair better then a fetch? You have to run 4 instead of 1/2 and you need a second to shuffle. Or you must run cards like Zuran Orb.
I don't need extra shuffle effects, but it's nice to have, if it doesn't hurt the deck right?
Has anyone some experience with a singleton Serra Sanctum? I saw it in some lists, it looks good on paper, but maybe not consitent enough.
This and that with Scrying Sheets you can draw 2 cards most turn and see 2 new cards those turns. Also with Scroll Rack shuffling is even better. Against some decks you can only tax that many times. With you handsize on 6/7 you can do alot more filtering with shuffle effects.
On another note:
I was making a list for possible Enchantments to run. Has anyone any experience with a black splash, mainly for Chains of Mephistopheles? It fits the deck quite good and seems decent and fast enough to at least hamper some decks, without hurting us.
It's a pity I can't find any other good cards. The Abyss and Nether Void are both to expensive to make an impact. And I don't know what to cut from the deck for it.
Splashing 2 colours is a also possible but it's stretching the mana-base a bit.
.Bb>
Sorry I missed the quite similar WR list TaxMan posted on page 6. And thanks @Benie for your helpful feedback, I'll follow your advice...
Truely, we want Scroll Rack over SDT in this deck so I'll change to 3 and 1.
And I'll cut Zuran Orb cause it only delays your loss instead of changing the momentum.
I think I'll add a thrid Boros Charm, because I'm quite happy with its flexibility, even under the Scepter.
Regarding you missing the focus: Yes, my decklist has some 2 ofs and no way of finding instants, but: 1) is there a Tutor-esque way to find instants in White / Red / Colorless, and 2) can't we wait for drawing one of the 6 key instants?
You're right, I terribly forgot that Blood Moon doesn't have an ETB effekt on Lotus Vale, although it's crystal clear...
I like where this conversation seems to be going. I've tried a few ways of playing with Tax/Rack. I am not a seasoned veteran with it, but am the only one in the area attempting to stretch out of the norm with it from time to time. I have found some synergies that were quite potent in my experiences. I did it as BANT for a while. There was a great deal of value in having a wheel of sun and moon on the board as a 4-of enlightened tutor kept recurring (as did the Sterling Groves). The deck was full of silver-bullet board lock pieces. Wheel of sun and moon with energy field was one. Wheel of sun and moon alongside a Rest in Peace was also good as I could thin my deck at will (choosing which replacement effect to apply) as well as hose some strategies. Turn 1 "Mox Diamond, Land Tax - Go" always felt so good, especially when followed with turn 2 "Scroll Rack".
I feel the need to share this little story. I built the deck using Lotus Petals as well (they could recur due to wheel and keep on-board land low). Somebody borrowed the build to test against Esper Stoneblade. The Esper player got jace to ultimate and lost to a sterling grove recurring through a wheel of sun and moon. There wasn't an answer. Admittedly, the opponent not having an answer is not a win condition, but the decks couldn't protect itself without countermagic of it's own. Manabond with ensnaring bridge held back everything as desired, and Zuran Orb with Explorations set my turns up. I didn't seem to play much on their turn anyway without countermagic.
As a player and fan of Omni-Show and having changed it to handle O-rings and such, I know that hand disruption hurts that deck bad and with cunning wishes main board, O-Rings don't phase it. I am currently working on another Tax/Rack and am considering W/B or a more esper build myself. The moxen were good but on those cases when EE would activate for 0, I was dead for keeping my Land Count down. That is why I liked the Borderpost reference on a previous page. The Moxen are, of course, desired as preference and am considering using Opals as well. Post M14 they can be petals anyway which worked for me before.
Anyway, just sharing some thoughts as I work on a list. I will try to post more after a build and more testing.
The problem with your six key instants is that they are all for different uses. You want the right instant for the right moment. You can't stall combo long enough until you find Orim's Chant. You might still loose the race against a Tarmogoyf while you imprinted Lightning Helix or Boros Charm.Sorry I missed the quite similar WR list TaxMan posted on page 6. And thanks @Benie for your helpful feedback, I'll follow your advice...
Truely, we want Scroll Rack over SDT in this deck so I'll change to 3 and 1.
And I'll cut Zuran Orb cause it only delays your loss instead of changing the momentum.
I think I'll add a thrid Boros Charm, because I'm quite happy with its flexibility, even under the Scepter.
Regarding you missing the focus: Yes, my decklist has some 2 ofs and no way of finding instants, but: 1) is there a Tutor-esque way to find instants in White / Red / Colorless, and 2) can't we wait for drawing one of the 6 key instants?
You're right, I terribly forgot that Blood Moon doesn't have an ETB effekt on Lotus Vale
If you want to play Isochron Scepter, I would play 5/6 Swords to Plowshare / Path to Exile and 5/6 Orim's Chant / Silence / Abeyance. And know what to imprint. Against bgx creature decks go for Swords to Plowshare, because it can at least kill some creatuers before it gets Abrupt Decayed. But Abrupt Decay has alot of targets for your deck, If Isochron Scepter eats one, your Land Tax/Scroll Rack doesn't
I can only think of Sunforger to find instants in those colours. But that card plays them, needs creatures and is expensive.
Intresting thoughts using Wheel of Sun and Moon and Rest in Peace. It kinda feels like the good ol' days where you wanted to go as fast as possible through the deck and keep about 5/6 cards left that could answer anything and recycle them until the opponent got bored. If it's succesful is another point. I was pondering about the idea of Chains of Mephistopheles (it's my favorite card... Seeing people reading it for 5 minutes and still can't tell what it does) and [cards]Raven Crime[cards] to deplete the hand of my opponenent. Problem is that Raven's Crime is put on bottom of my library too when I retrace. The problem was, between playing lands and discarding lands I couldn't retrace for long enough. It was fun though. It had a very low curve, played a little more creatures. It kinda looked like the old weenie list. I played Dark Confidant, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Stoneforge Mystic. It was just for fun though, not for this thread.
As for silver bullets, I rather go for consistency. My silver bullets on the moment:
2 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
This with 4 Enlightened Tutor 4 Scroll Rack and 3 Sensei's Divining Top makes sure I find the card when I need it.
Silver bullets I tested and got removed because they didn't do enough, or where worse then some of the above.
Isochron Scepter: It takes alot of slots(extra Swords to Plowshare, Silence and Orim's Chant) to make it work. It's slow, expensive and is a 2 for 1 with Abrupt decay.
Zuran Orb/Ivory Tower: I rather find Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace and win the game then stall my opponent. Both only good with Land Tax online.
Moat: worse then Humility. You can run a 1/1 split between the MD, but I want to see Humility in 99% of the cases. Stopping Deathrite Shaman, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Qasali Pridemage, Elves is more important.
Solitary Confinement: Doesn't win the game and only works with Land Tax online, otherwise very bad Time Walk.
Goblin Charbelcher: It doesn't guarentee the win in the game. Also only good with Land Tax online.
Suppression Field: It only slows opponent's down and we can't take advantage of the time it gives us.
Blood Moon: At is best when landed turn 1 or 2, that is not going to happen to often. It doesn't impact the battlefield that much. Even the most greedy manabases can play around it, if they no it's coming, which they normally see.
Chains of Mephistopheles: Very solid against Brainstorm, solid against Jace, the Mind Sculptor (although Pithing Needle works better for 1 mana.) Still an serious consideration but to many times not a complete answer: Against Griselbrand they still got a 7/7 lifelinker. Pithing Needle works just as good and can target Sneak Attack too. Against Omnishow they still get to filter through the deck, if they have 2 cards in hand, they still win. Just like Blood Moon you need it early against blue decks to mess with their cantrips.
Anyway, I'm almost down on my 75, I will post the list when I'm done. I think the deck will be tier 3 though... On the other hand, I have to play my first match without any play-mistakes.
.Bb>
Good to see this still being worked on. I don't see why Quinn, although now essentially abandoned, gets to be Established while this flavor of monowhite is relegated to New and Dev.
Bb, what makes you think this deck is tier 3? What do you anticipate the major limiting factors to be? Look forward to your list.
The reason why Quinn is under Established is because infamousbearassassin (Jack Elgin) used the deck to win back-to-back-to-back tournaments with it and had enough publicity to warrant other decks at its time to sideboard against it.
This deck has only one recorded top 8 (at one of the online MTG Salvation tournaments). Outside of the players from early 2000s and the people that follow this thread and it's Salvation mirror thread, no one really knows how the deck works.
It's good that Bb is keeping the dream alive. I am looking forward to his list because I have to admit, I haven't been contributing; I haven't been playing Legacy because of my hectic schedule.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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