[Deck] Elves Combo

[Lemnear]

This thread consequently degenerates to it's core or anitque techs/cardchoices because of budget-builds. Can't we simply mark Budget-List as such before we discuss the ever-same changes and suggestions over and over?

Atm the more interesting question is the number of Quirions/Birchlores in the list or the Number/choices of fatties MD/SB or working out the SB for combo decks like S&T.

Instead we discuss proxies for Cradle like Priest vs. Archdruid rather than the count of the obviously superior card. :/

[Dice_Box]

This thread consequently degenerates to it's core or anitque techs/cardchoices because of budget-builds. Can't we simply mark Budget-List as such before we discuss the ever-same changes and suggestions over and over?

Atm the more interesting question is the number of Quirions/Birchlores in the list or the Number/choices of fatties MD/SB or working out the SB for combo decks like S&T.

Instead we discuss proxies for Cradle like Priest vs. Archdruid rather than the count of the obviously superior card. :/

To be honest I did spend 300 bucks on two cards this week, not sure if I count that as a budget build. Also this is going to come up time and again because not everyone has a lot of spending money. Some people are looking for a nice cheap combo deck and to be honest Elves are seen as the cheap combo deck of Legacy. I mean you can put together a base for less than 100. Can not really do that with many other combo decks. Fact is only burn is cheaper. Personally, I like tribal decks and dislike blue. Elves suit me, rebuilding Zombies next.

Anyway, sorry if I came in and hurt your hallowed thread asking questions about the titled deck. I have only had a chance to have it in a playable state for about 2 weeks and I am still building. Hope we can all get along though, it would be a shame to hurt a growing player base with harsh words and elitist views just because not everyone has the same budget.

Onto your other points. I would be hard pressed to run more than 3 Cradle's, leaning more on two due to my dislike of having to auto mull good hands when it is the only land we have. I think the number of Quirions your running will matter more on how many duals you have as they help protect them. That said if you are using more Priests the card will also hold value. As for Birchlore, if I could find space I would run four. They add speed to otherwise dead drops like a turn 3 Llanowar if you do not have a Heritage out. Acting like a pseudo Heritage too gives them merits. I am running 2 right now.

If I was running Deathrite I would still lean on at least two Birchlore, the increase in speed they can offer is beneficial beyond that of offering any given colour. The any colour clause is just icing.

"working out the SB for combo decks like S&T."
Karakas, a white build with Thalia and Mana Tithe or Krosan Grip. I think (coming from playing goblins) elves have a great strength in playing SnT other decks don't have. SnT is noramally going to drop either:

1) an enchantment
2) a bomb

Since the deck often runs mainboard mana fetches like Crop Rotation, Karakas deals with the bombs quite well. If Griselbrand is a pain there is Pithing as an option too. But since I often see Emrakul dropped, Karakas offers us a way to respond that is near on unmatched. I mean greens nonbasic mana fetch is much better than the other colours and some instant speed mana drops are quite the headache when you think of some of the utility lands we can use.

Also elves gain a benefit with Krosan Grip being in colour. I run "Christmas Goblins" splashing green and white to deal with these issues. Elves get Grip for free. It is without a doubt the best answer to many issues that may hit the table and it is in colour. I can not overstate how much I envied this when I played red alone and had to splash for this one card. Sneak Attack, Omniscience, dealt with effectively in equal measure by one card and we have it.

[th3 w1z4rd]

I know I'll get lambasted for this, but Emrakul is better than Craterhoof Behemoth. I've tested both. My build runs some Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruids so it's easier to play him. I've seen numerous situations in this thread where Craterhoof failed. You win when you play Emrakul. Period. I do not run Natural Order or Hoof. I do run Regal Force. Even against Terminus, at least with Emrakul you get another turn so that's something. Emrakul also can't be countered or Swords'd. I've even won games where I had Emrakul opening hand, whereas you hate to see Hoof in your hand most of the time. Emrakul is a million times better against Show and Tell that is not Omni (which Hoof fails spectacularly against as well). I've won and top 8'd numerous times with Elves so I'm not talking out my arse. Just stating my opinion. I love Emrakul.

[Julian23]

I'm sorry I don't have enough time to address all your points right now, but one thing really caught my eye.

Craterhoof, in my opinion, is way better than Emrakul against Show and Tell. Emrakul is totally dependant on winning with Glimpse whereas Craerhoof wins with Glimpse but also with Natural Order, making an early kill much more likely. The only reason I could see you arguing in favor of Emrakul here is by randomly having it in your hand when they Show and Tell AND don't kill you, which isn't cutting it for me at all.

You mention that you run several Priests and Archdruids which I feel is pretty far from what most people play in this deck. I think the "standard" right now is 0 Priests+Archdruids, so we're actually not really comparing Emrakul and Caterhoof in the same setting. What we're actually discussing here is not Emrakul vs Craterhoof but Priests vs Natural Order. But even with Priests, I would feel I'd rather have a Craterhoof.

[danyul]

This thread consequently degenerates to it's core or anitque techs/cardchoices because of budget-builds. Can't we simply mark Budget-List as such before we discuss the ever-same changes and suggestions over and over?

Atm the more interesting question is the number of Quirions/Birchlores in the list or the Number/choices of fatties MD/SB or working out the SB for combo decks like S&T.

Instead we discuss proxies for Cradle like Priest vs. Archdruid rather than the count of the obviously superior card. :/

LOL remember when I said "welcome to the Elves thread"? This is what I meant. In no other thread do I see so much discussion of subpar builds simply because the pilot is missing key cards. But this is the Elves thread. Logic does not apply here.

[Julian23]

The fun part is that Elves was once considered a budget deck.

[th3 w1z4rd]

I'm sorry I don't have enough time to address all your points right now, but one thing really caught my eye.

Craterhoof, in my opinion, is way better than Emrakul against Show and Tell. Emrakul is totally dependant on winning with Glimpse whereas Craerhoof wins with Glimpse but also with Natural Order, making an early kill much more likely. The only reason I could see you arguing in favor of Emrakul here is by randomly having it in your hand when they Show and Tell AND don't kill you, which isn't cutting it for me at all.

You mention that you run several Priests and Archdruids which I feel is pretty far from what most people play in this deck. I think the "standard" right now is 0 Priests+Archdruids, so we're actually not really comparing Emrakul and Caterhoof in the same setting. What we're actually discussing here is not Emrakul vs Craterhoof but Priests vs Natural Order. But even with Priests, I would feel I'd rather have a Craterhoof.

Against Show and Tell if you put in Emrakul and they put in anything that's not Omniscience, that's awesome. Emrakul is not dependent on Glimpse because I run more high mana producers like Priest and Archdruid and also many untap effects (Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger). That was my whole point. Draw Emrakul, win. I can easily play it most of the time. Natural Order always got countered for me and then I lost a dude, a turn, a card, and 4 mana. Horrible. Archdruid also pumps all your guys permanently which is good.

[Dice_Box]

I would be interested in seeing your deck list. Since needing to add in your Mana pump elves means your losing other key cards. I am interested in what concessions you made to get a working deck that has such a line up. When I was editing my deck I found it already so highly tuned it was hard to cut anything.

[Koby]

I know I'll get lambasted for this, but Emrakul is better than Craterhoof Behemoth. I've tested both. My build runs some Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruids so it's easier to play him. I've seen numerous situations in this thread where Craterhoof failed. You win when you play Emrakul. Period. I do not run Natural Order or Hoof. I do run Regal Force. Even against Terminus, at least with Emrakul you get another turn so that's something. Emrakul also can't be countered or Swords'd. I've even won games where I had Emrakul opening hand, whereas you hate to see Hoof in your hand most of the time. Emrakul is a million times better against Show and Tell that is not Omni (which Hoof fails spectacularly against as well). I've won and top 8'd numerous times with Elves so I'm not talking out my arse. Just stating my opinion. I love Emrakul.

I agree with you on this; but I also recognize that I have an irrational attraction to Emrakul and try to find all the decks that can play him. That said, I find the G/bw build that relies heavily on Glimpse but not Natural Order (since it gets countered too frequently) is solid enough. I still choose to run a Craterhoof Behemoth as a GSZ target, and that's good enough too. Specifically, the extra turn from casting Emrakul is much more powerful in a deck like Elves than the overhyped Overrun from Craterhood Behemoth. I think NO package in the SB is fine against decks that don't have reliable ways to disrupt it like Maverick or Junk. Even then, any deck with Black or Blue I would be hesitant to include the package. Perish and E-Plague, and countermagic both stop NO cold.

The older list has three game plans:
Plan #1) Glimpse chain into Emrakul.
Plan #2) Recycle Elvish Visionary with Wirewood Symbiote to gain extreme card advantage.
Plan #3) Deathrite Shaman activations to burn out opponent with Elven beatdown.

I don't think the NO plan helps much in this regard because it comes at a cost of non-creature slots. It weakens the Glimpse chain in order to provide another avenue to it. I would rather the Glimpse chain be as efficient as possible without diluting it.

[Lemnear]

I know I'll get lambasted for this, but Emrakul is better than Craterhoof Behemoth. I've tested both. My build runs some Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruids so it's easier to play him. I've seen numerous situations in this thread where Craterhoof failed. You win when you play Emrakul. Period. I do not run Natural Order or Hoof. I do run Regal Force. Even against Terminus, at least with Emrakul you get another turn so that's something. Emrakul also can't be countered or Swords'd. I've even won games where I had Emrakul opening hand, whereas you hate to see Hoof in your hand most of the time. Emrakul is a million times better against Show and Tell that is not Omni (which Hoof fails spectacularly against as well). I've won and top 8'd numerous times with Elves so I'm not talking out my arse. Just stating my opinion. I love Emrakul.

There is a reason why Vintage decks run Blightsteel Colossus, Show and Tell Griselbrand and Elves Craterhoof (for the moment) all over Emrakul and that is saving a whooping 10+ mana to cast them! (Tinker, NO, S&T)

It's no base to discuss if you assume that you always have 20+ cards and mana available, even with this deck.

LOL remember when I said "welcome to the Elves thread"? This is what I meant. In no other thread do I see so much discussion of subpar builds simply because the pilot is missing key cards. But this is the Elves thread. Logic does not apply here.

Daniel, I well remember. :)

I just don't have a clue why a) the Elves thread in the Budget-Forum isn't used properly here and b) the same questions and suggestions appear every 4 pages.

Marking lists posted here as Budget builds isn't too much to ask for and make it easier to offer suited advice. I'm sure the Community can work out solid lists without cradle, NO's or DRS' for budget reasons but we have to know that. This has nothing to do with elitism imo.

[MD.Ghost]

@Lemnear

That is my current build:

/ Deckname: "Elvish Empire" by Team Neo Berlin
// Lands
2 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Windswept Heath
1 Pendelhaven
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Taiga

// Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Scavenging Ooze

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll

I think 4 Quirion Ranger is absolute right, with Duals, Deathrites etc. - it works also quite well, if you chose the Natural Order route, because you need less mana and can kill with only a few ressources.

I test an 2nd Birchlore Ranger over the 2nd Llanowar - because i play with 4 colors and Birchlore speeds up your combo turns and is often a similir or even better mana dork - Sometimes (Plague etc.) additional "Morph" is also good, especially with Natural Order.

Sideboard is full with anti-combo cards, i prefer split-hate do catch my opponents off guard. For all the Ruric-tester, include him maindeck or let it be - as a sideboard card, gaddock teeg is much better. If you play with Ruric, you want him Game 1 (which often is really hard against other combo decks) to improve your odds.

Previously i play with the common Natural Order + Progenitus Package, but now i test another route with Jitte and Thrun. Against Tempo and Control, Thrun works quite well (and you dont want additional card disadvantage, if your natural order move eats a counter or does nothing because you face annoying disruption game 2 and 3). Jitte is also ok (a little bit weaker with the upcoming rule change), maybe you can also try Mortarpod in this slot.

[Lemnear]

How often do you need the Harmonic & Ooze game 1? Do you feel they are really worth the MD slots?

What makes Thrun better than Progenitus in your Sideboard against the average Meta?

For the NO haters: I've found that Vengevine is a real house in those slots as an alternative victory route but i'm too used to abuse NO to tutor for Symbiote/Nettle ;)

[igri_is_a_bk]

Ooze can be justifiable in the main. It's cheap, works well with Cradle, and adds another answer to degenerate decks , which we need all the help we can get against. And it incidentally beats Burn game one if you're losing the race. I'm pretty sure CalebD used to play one, but Reanimator may have been more prevalent at the time. It's also very good against sweepers game one. They wipe the board, you drop Ooze and eat everything.

If I'm playing any sort of artifact/enchantment hate main, it's going to be Viridian Shaman. The most relevant enchantment is Counterbalance, which we go for NO against anyways. The interaction between Shaman + Symbiote gives Stoneblade nightmares and I expect a shit load of that deck at SCG this weekend.

How is Vengevine even comparable in power to NO? You pay 4 for a 4/3 - or - you pay 4 and win. Seems pretty unbalanced.

[Julian23]

Against Show and Tell if you put in Emrakul and they put in anything that's not Omniscience, that's awesome. Emrakul is not dependent on Glimpse [...]

Emrakul is depedant on Glimpse. I already mentioned how weak of an argument it is to randomly have it in hand when they S&T and don't put Omniscience or Sneak Attack.

On a more important discussion, I also feel very good about the 4th Quirion Ranger and honestly, it's not a card I would have considered cutting before people mentioned it in here. Heritage and Nettle aside, Quirion Ranger always helps a ton in generating turn2/3 wins or setting up a turn2/3 Natural Order. With Nettle Sentinel and Heritage Druid, Quirion Ranger is essentially a green Dark Ritual: its one more Elf for Heritage, untaps Nettle AND untaps a third Elf, allowing for a reactivation of Heritage — all for a single green mana. It's also reusable with Wirewood Symbiote.

It also enables combat tricks with Dryad Arbor. Matt Nass also mentioned that a board of Forest, Dryad Arbor and Quirion Ranger actually casts Natural Order, which becomes more important in those grindy post-board games.

/edit: Ooze + Cradle = sex. I still don't have the slots in my sb as of now.


4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest

4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Ranger
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

I have a strong graving for that 2nd Birchlore Ranger, I think about it day and night...obvious cut would be Ezuri but I'm not quite ready to make that cut. Shaving one of the 18 lands (not counting Dryad) is also a thing to look into. We used to play 16 but I'd mulligan like every 4th game because of mana issues like only having Cradle for an otherwise superb hand. Basically this list is just my standard list with +1 land as the 18th land is actually the 4th Cradle which used to be a 1-off Crop Rotation.

[Koby]

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

I have a strong graving for that 2nd Birchlore Ranger, I think about it day and night...obvious cut would be Ezuri but I'm not quite ready to make that cut. Shaving one of the 18 lands (not counting Dryad) is also a thing to look into. We used to play 16 but I'd mulligan like every 4th game because of mana issues like only having Cradle for an otherwise superb hand. Basically this list is just my standard list with +1 land as the 18th land is actually the 4th Cradle which used to be a 1-off Crop Rotation.

Making the cut from the 9th fetchland and the Ezuri would give you two slots to run the 2nd Birchlore Ranger and potentially Elvish Archdruid. The latter gives you a small hedge and a decent enough pump to the team's strength in attack mode when you have to go "small". The Archdruid can sometimes be used to power out a large GSZ or cast either Regal Force & Hoof to win "right now"; Ezuri can't do that unless you already have a lot of mana.

From the sideboard, you can use remove the spell-based GY nukes for a pair of Scavenging Ooze (which shine against DRS mid-range decks too), and supplement with Thalia or Thorn of Amethyst (as they're interchangeable in this deck). If you have room for two such effects, then it makes more sense to split them between Thalia & Thorns. I'm unsold on the NO/Pro package, and that eats up some more valuable sideboard slots.

Against a supposed Jund matchup that runs Punishing Fire, your team is unlikely to survive regardless, and Progenitus might still die to Liliana's -2. Which matchup is the Progenitus best favored in?

[acefreemok]

This is my latest build. Any feedback would be highly appreciated.


Lands
14 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor


Creatures
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Concordant Crossroads
2 Crop Rotation
2 Natural Order
1 Chord of Calling

Sideboard
2 Meekstone
1 Choke
1 Elvish Champion
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre

[th3 w1z4rd]

My current list is here. It's 61 cards right now.

4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Crop Rotation
15 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle

I don't remember where or what the sideboard is.

[Lobo]

Add me to the list of those who are feeling a bit frustrated that people in this thread continually advocate for outdated, budget and suboptimal lists. I wish only the best to those who play an old version of this deck, but I would rather they discuss it in the budget elves thread. The various budget versions of this deck are potentially powerful in kitchen-table play or at your LGS, but this thread is pretty much the only place on the 'net where the very best players can discuss the intricacies of the front-running version of the deck, and I bet more of them would be willing to do so if the thread weren't subject to these repeated claims that, despite all the deck's recent success in contrast to its older versions, it is actually somehow drastically flawed.

In particular, if you're tempted to bog down this thread by claiming provocatively that the deck is actually better in its pre-Hoof, pre-DRS, pre-Abrupt Decay, pre-Cabal Therapy version (despite a lack of major tournament success for such an archaic build), I hope you will reconsider. At the very least, try to substantiate your claims with evidence in the form of major tournament reports, rather than mere anecdotal experience or a priori theorizing.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Add me to the list of those who are feeling a bit frustrated that people in this thread continually advocate for outdated, budget and suboptimal lists. I wish only the best to those who play an old version of this deck, but I would rather they discuss it in the budget elves thread. The various budget versions of this deck are potentially powerful in kitchen-table play or at your LGS, but this thread is pretty much the only place on the 'net where the very best players can discuss the intricacies of the front-running version of the deck, and I bet more of them would be willing to do so if the thread weren't subject to these repeated claims that, despite all the deck's recent success in contrast to its older versions, it is actually somehow drastically flawed.

In particular, if you're tempted to bog down this thread by claiming provocatively that the deck is actually better in its pre-Hoof, pre-DRS, pre-Abrupt Decay, pre-Cabal Therapy version (despite a lack of major tournament success for such an archaic build), I hope you will reconsider. At the very least, try to substantiate your claims with evidence in the form of major tournament reports, rather than mere anecdotal experience or a priori theorizing.

THIS is your first post? Jerk.

Some of us have local game stores where most of the major players in big tournaments are represented throughout the weeks. How does that make them inferior?

[Lobo]

Really now, I don't feel that ad hominem attacks are warranted.

I too play at a high-tier LGS (Armada Games in Tampa, FL), but to succeed there on Saturday night is in no way comparable to success in a major tournament. Also, to clarify, I see no problem with people posting and discussing outdated lists. However, when those same people advocate for their pet lists at the expense of the version that has seen recent high-profile success, I do expect the burden of proof to rest on their shoulders. As it stands, the evidence is stacked against them.

I'm open to the possibility that the current version of the deck would benefit from its own new thread. Since Glimpse-combo is now a secondary or even tertiary win condition, the name "elves combo" seems a bit of a misnomer.