Pyroclasm + RiP is our best answear against BUG
RiP for SCM Tarmogoyf and Shaman.
Pyroclasm, because it just exiles anything.
I'm just afraid of discard spells and planeswalkers, overall Liliana (Jace is more fine with Rebs)
apart from Jace's Brainstorm, ANYTHING is shut off by a single Leyline.
Probably my 4 of set makes Esper and Bug rather easy matchup.
Instead I find almost impossible the SnT Matchup.
Probably just show and tell might help there
Pyroclasm + RiP is our best answear against BUG
RiP for SCM Tarmogoyf and Shaman.
Pyroclasm, because it just exiles anything.
I'm just afraid of discard spells and planeswalkers, overall Liliana (Jace is more fine with Rebs)
apart from Jace's Brainstorm, ANYTHING is shut off by a single Leyline.
Probably my 4 of set makes Esper and Bug rather easy matchup.
Instead I find almost impossible the SnT Matchup.
Probably just Meddling Mage might help there
Your post does not make sense. How does Pryo+RiP become your best answer when you are Still afraid of Liliana? Your "best answer" not only failed to address Liliana, it's not even "best answer" to begin with. Best answer would be one card that would severely hose BUG, not Two cards. If you need to Chain 2 cards with conditionals, as in RiP has to be in play, it's definitely Not the best answer.Originally Posted by Poron
Granted, I don't know what the best answer is, but I am sure single card solution like Mirran Crusader is still better than Two card solution like Pyro + RiP.
I think the best way (especially in g1) to win against BUG is to survive the early-/midgame with SP, FoW, Swords, counterspell, terminus and play eot a EtA for x5...After boarding I think Moore EtA + PW are quiet gold (maybe Blood Moon too)...
Pyro alone still kills anything but Goyfs.. still good enough
You're anyway right that Mirran Crusader is a wonderful card against that matchup but it dies to Terminus and Pyroclasm, those cards are 10% of our list.
Again, Pyroclasm works well against them, RiP too. Reb too. Leyline too
All together become a 30% of the deck and we become rather able to handle well
For everyone going crazy for pyroclasm, you all should try my punishing fire list. It's been pretty awesome and gives you the ability to kill planeswalkers as well. This will be increasingly valuable when the legend rule changes and we have to battle jaces more often. Here is my updated list:
Creatures:4
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells:33
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Punishing Fire
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Terminus
Lands:23
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Island
2 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Plateau
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Humility
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Celestial Purge
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Misdirection
2 Rest in Peace
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
Since M14 (Most Probably) won't shake up the meta so much (Maybe Young Pyro but that's that), will like to share with you guys my list too
Punishing Miracles
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 STP
3 Punishing Fire
3 Snapcaster
1 Mana Leak
3 Counterbalance
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Detention Sphere
3 Jace, TMS
4 F.O.W.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Island
SB:
2 Terminus
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sword to plowshares
1 Humility
2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened tutor
1 Pithing needle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wear and Tear
1 Engineered explosives
1 Red elemental blast
1 Pyroblast
Some rationale:
1. I want 10 2 CMC in the Main -> makes CB more effective. the 4 drop can give way because their Jace is no longer that dangerous (since it cant blow our jace, hence we are back to pre-jace days where we load up on 1 and 2 drop, which IMO are dangerous right now).
2. No terminus in MB -> I agree with Carsten (whatever that's spelled) approach of MB against combo and control more effectively, and hence cuts terminus. Beside, punishing fire does gets there against these decks. Just save your forces against Nimble mongoose or race it (its a lot to ask, but oh well)
3. SCM -> 2 drop, Being a CB deck, I heard rebuying brainstorm and STP are good. not to mention RIP is out of the question since we are playing Pfire in MB.
4. Punishing Fire -> 2 drop, for planeswalker/critters/whatever u fancy. Try keeping a hand of 1 Grove 1 Punishing fire and 5 islands/etc against esperblade (which I heard, seems quite popular) decks.
So far has tested heavily against esperblade (And MUD if that counts) and seems promising.
will need help with sideboards coz I haven't tested against RUG & Jund. And I felt RIP helm seems wrong there. Just that it's good against Jund deck.
Maybe I'm off my rocker here, but it seems to me like Punishing Fire would fit more into the old RUG Countertop decks of old. Especially if you are cutting Terminus. I personally don't much care for the idea, but Countertop RUG control is something you might experiment with. Also, Mystic Gate plays poorly with Grove.
Pyroclasm isn't bad, but it's just not great either. It only hits Goyfs under RIP, but Goyfs and Shamans are both handled by RIP anyways. It can't hit Creeping Tar Pit either.
Mirran Crusader is great against BUG if you have the equipment to back it up. A4/4 with pro-Abrupt Decay isn't that good when they just bounce it with a Jace or kill it with Liliana. Since it's only ever a 4/4 in our deck, they can likely just ignore it for a good several turns. I would rather be playing Geist, but I'm not overly fond of him either.
REB is almost always great. Leyline can be great depending on how they boarded and how they draw. A Pyroclasm or two doesn't hurt, but the MU is still definitely tough. I've done a fair bit of testing though, and it will get much easier after m14.
Having tested punishing fire and played with it heavily, the combo is best in decks with heavy red. The problem with Pfires in this deck is that Blue is the main colour with white a close 2nd. As a splash colour, red is quite light in this deck and punishing fire doesn't work effectively without enough red mana. Also you need WW for Entreat the angels. My opinion is that for the manabase to work correctly, it's either Entreat (and other WW cards like Moat, Elspeth) or punishing fire.
Being a 2 colour deck is also one of this deck's main strengths. Going into 3 colours makes this deck much more vulnerable. Going Basic, fetch basic, basic for the first 3 turns has won me plenty of games against wasteland decks that try to strand me on mana.
Red source is not even the biggest problem, the biggest problem I see is the complete abandonment of Rest in Peace. When you are committed to abusing graveyard, PFire here might not be as broken as other Legacy decks. You really need Snapcaster somewhere to push your graveyard utilization over the top.
I felt the concern of abandoning red (or rather not utilizing it highly) is that come July, what can be done to a resolved Jace at the other side of the table. Of course, going Red heavy will open up the manabase against RUG. But something gotta give I suppose.
Our deck is actually one of the best, if not the strongest, Jace deck out there right now. If anything, we likely can worry about their Jaces even less because they will no longer be blocking our own Jace from coming down.
Not to mention that should we decide their Jace is a problem, we are the only current Jace deck with access to REB.
Would Nevermore or Meddling Mage be a good sideboard card against the Shardless BUG matchup?
Yup Punishing Fire is awesome too, but:
1) it requires a not fetchable land
2) We lose Rest in Peace.
and I really don't understand how playing without Rest in Peace could make this deck any viable in modern meta.
Also it makes every our Tutor a 1cc Instant speed win condition (you get what I mean)
Punishing Fire vs Rest in Peace. Rest in Peace wins all day
The meta is heavy with "fair" decks that can't realistically beat punishing fire outside of goyf, and combo decks that don't care about RIP. I mean, how does Jund or bug beat punishing fire with a grove? They can abrupt decay RIP, get card advantages off bob, etc. Fire also kills their planeswalker which are their other threat that RIP doesn't do anything against.
Well, there's liliana of the veil. And I don't think we do a good job in harassing opposing jace or protect our own. Esperblade (lingering souls) seems better.
There's a reason why miracles are the only deck that run 4 jace, u know.
I like kaosjr's deck (the maindeck, not so much the board). What he ended up with is essentially the smallest possible deviation from my build that could incorporate Punishing Fire. I'm not sure that I like it better than mine, but I think I will actually try it out, which is more than I can say for most builds.
I've been very happy after converting to the Punishing Fire build (my build is much more slanted towards the fair matchups g1 and worries about combo post board, however). Its ability to pull out of tight spots has been critical in many of the matches I've played recently; for example, at SCG Milwaukee I had an opponent with Uwb stoneblade resolve an early Stoneforge, several Lingering Souls, and three Jtms across the course of the game (all of which were in play for several turns) and I won easily because of PF. It solves so many of the cards I was having problems with: Lingering Souls, Jace, Stoneforge, tribal aggro, etc., and some decks, like Esperblade have a very very difficult time beating P Fire + Grove.
Unfortunately I had to work the day of SCG St. Louis and have a wedding to attend on the weekend of SCG Minneapolis so I am unsure what legacy action I will have the rest of this summer.
"Attack with Order of the Ebon Hand."
"K, block with Jotun Grunt?"
"It has pro white."
"Swords?"
"It still has pro white."
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE Team RTD
Twitter: @shawnldewey
Leave Volcanic Island alone, it can be avoided with a Mountain MD.
But what about Grove of the Burnillows? PFire builds are sitting ducks against Wasteland
I like the list. Though i am curious as to how well you fare against the Show and Tell matchup in Game 1
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
Reply With Quote