@ GerryT Maybe you can post your current MB as well?Originally Posted by Korvo
Being prepared for everything is interesting. The end of the day I personally think the pilot of a deck is the most important factor. You can copy any TOP 8 deck but fail every time. Understanding why you play certain cards works best. This seems obvious but it is still overlooked. Especially Side boarding is a skill that tests you everytime. Having a perfect sideboard is useless unless you board well. Of course this is what makes magic and especially Legacy so much fun
Currently Playing: Scapefit , Shardless BUG, Team America,
Thnaks for pointing this out. I do side them in against Miracles, which happen to have 1-2 Verdicts around but mostly to kill Leyline/CB/RIP. It's just a more versatile card than Dread of Night with some additional applications against a vast majority of the field. You don't want to lose against T0 Leyline against Omnitell (thanks Lejay).
If you want to "prepare for everythign" golgari charm is a pretty good example of how to achieve that. Look at elves which is very troublesome. Dread of night, Krosan grip - not so hot.
Currently playing: Elves
I meant Miracles actually. But I agree, verdict is more played in esperblade (because Miracles already have terminus I guess). And Golgari Charm is a tool versus Souls/verdict deck.
Here I disagree^^ Just about Miracles in fact. I don't plan to deal with rest in peace anyway and rely on Decay to destroy Counterbalance.
And Leyline in Miracles? It's possible, but I would not side in Golgari Charm to deal with a potential Leyline from Miracles. If I see a leyline post side okay but I would not bring in in the dark.
I like Golgari Charm. I actually play it. I just wanted to point out how it can be a false good versatile card sometimes.
I would not generally, but 2 people locally do play 4 Leylines and they bring them against Liliana decks just to avoid the ultimate, so i bring the charms. ;)
This was more to point out how versatile the card can be, even the Regenerate is relevant. If people play Nic Fit a lot it works pretty well. It kills Moat and Humility and i already killed a Sneak attack with it so i'm sold that this card deserves 2 slots ind the Sideboard.
I've been testing this deck a little bit for a while and reading up on stuff and have to start by saying that 1. I have a deep hate for Tarmogoyf, but he's probably needed in the deck and 2. I really like Glissa :)
So here's the list that i want to continue testing with and hopefully performing at tournaments:
Mainboard (61)
21 Lands
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
17 Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Glissa, the Traitor
4 Shardless Agent
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
20 Other spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Whipflare
2 Liliana of the Veil
It's 61 cards atm, but i'm not sure what to cut. I do however really love the little red splash for EE and Whipflare :)
you cant' play EE and Shardless in the same deck.
I don't know, with glissa, EE becomes a repeatable spell. Sounds pretty nasty to me.
First of all i think its better to play with 1 basic Swamp when you play Glissa (or Lili). It stabilises your mana base and lets you play a Shaman even if a Blood Moon is on the field. Second: i dont think that Force is SO good in main. Im sharing my opinion with Brian Braun-Duin (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...UG-Delver.html). I tested a lot of times the last few weeks with and without Force and i never had the feeling i need it against any deck except combo.
Heres my Playlist:
Land (22)
2xBayou
1xCreeping Tar Pit
2xMisty Rainforest
4xPolluted Delta
1xSwamp
2xTropical Island
3xUnderground Sea
4xVerdant Catacombs
3xWasteland
Creature (17)
3xBaleful Strix
4xDeathrite Shaman
2xGlissa, the Traitor
4xShardless Agent
4xTarmogoyf
Artifact (1)
1xUmezawa's Jitte
Sorcery (9)
4xAncestral Vision
3xHymn to Tourach
2xThoughtseize
Instant (8)
4xAbrupt Decay
4xBrainstorm
Planeswalker (3)
3xJace, the Mind Sculptor
This version of BUG is very stable. It feels awesome to have a Glissa equipped with a Jitte. Im not pretty sure if 2 Glissa are better to play than 2 Lilis, but when you cant get rid of her she is incredible. With all the Strix and Agents in this deck Glissa may be the right choice. Ok Lili has a better impact but she can more easy be countered (f.e. Spell Pierce) and also dies to a Bolt or Decay.
For the EE discussion: i prefer playing a Jitte but with Glissa i think the idea is no so bad. Should try it out.
I don't get the logic behind playing more late game stuff in favour of Force of Will if we have so much card advantage and late game bombs already. Force is of course only "needed" against combo (which you can expect 20%+ of the meta btw), but it is also a very good card to not fall back too much in tempo against fast fair decks. You don't want to die with 7 cards in hand. The card disadvantage is not a problem in this deck - beeing "overwhelmed" early is, so for me Force maindeck is set.
Last edited by catmint; 06-20-2013 at 02:57 AM.
Currently playing: Elves
Cutting Force of Wills is probably just making us clearly inferior to Jund. Midrangecascade-deck? I'd play Jund any moment of the week over your list.
And I agree with everything catmint said, about this point.
Additionally - I really just don't get the hype behind Glissa. It's a if-if/win-more/-card if you ask me. Her manacost make it harder to play utilitylands like Wasteland / Ruins, her abilities are very conditional, and even then don't end the game. Her body/combatstats are probalby okay - though not as aggressive as Goyf.
EE and Agent? *sighs* Just like playing Crucible and RIP in the same deck. There could be a timeframe where it can work... could.
Greetings
I was sure you disagree Phillip. But does Force make the MU against Jund so much better? And why is everyone talking about Jund? Aren't there other decks to deal with?
For ex. look at the video i posted before. BBD had no Force in his MB and goes against RUG. (he only lost one game) The first thing BBD had done if he played Force main, is to board it out.
And in my opinion Glissa is a threat you have to deal with and fits great into the deck. As is Lili.
Nevertheless it is not quite like me to play without Force. But the last few playtesting felt not bad without it. (against Jund!) In our metagame (Austria) Force surely would be better main. Cause our players really like playing Combo. But i'm sure thats not the case all over the world.
Force is not for the Jund-matchup. What I was saying, is that Jund is the better Shaman-Cascadedeck if there are no Forces mainboard. Despite the fact that Force produces carddisadvantages, it produces, as catmint pointed out, both, "tempo" and an answer to any spell, which is important in some MUs, probably most. In addition to this it gains quite some strength in the lategame because you can easily afford 1-2ing the opponent if you drew 3 right before. Still a good trade.
Greetings
I would never drop FoW completely( atleast not in any competitive setting). I can see going down do 3,but how u expect to win from combo without any counters md and 4-6cards max that can interact? The deck is really good as it is-don't get too greedy by giving up fows just for some extra value against midrange decks(which u have more then enough already). Even saying u bring in X cards post sb against combo doesn't justify that.
These lists with 21 lands are shocking to me. I just upped my land count to 23 lands, I feel like the only times I lose is when I fall behind on mana.
Yes Legacy’s range is very wide. Yes it’s hard to prepare specifically for the metagame of next week-end. But that’s why for years I have built my legacy sideboards according to game plans rather than for specific match-ups. That doesn’t have a lot to do with our discussion about preparing for combo main deck or not. In that case the only metagame consideration to figure out is “what is the percentage of combo decks in general”. Will it be 10, 20 or more than 30% ? It’s when you answer that question that you can take a good decision. And that has nothing to do with considering precise decks that represent 2% of a field, which is indeed very hard and useless to figure out.
In your sample example from last week-end you name “Belcher, Burn, Mono-Blue, and Aggro Loam”. I don’t think for example that you should feel much more prepared than I am with my list against belcher. You can argue that my list will be less good presideboard indeed. Taking your invitational list I concede that 2 seize and 1 pulse (and less important 3 htt) are better than 4th fow alone (unless we consider the combo player always wins the die roll). But if we look at post sb you bring in :
SB: 2 [6E] Chill
SB: 1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
Whereas I bring in 3 whipflare, 2 revokers, 2 cliques (even if for this card the clock counts more than the diruption in the match-up), 1 pulse and 4 discards at 1cc. I feel much more favored after G1 and there are several reasons to consider post sb games as the main focus.
The first consideration is that against combo you won’t be able to know what your opponent is on for first game quite often (at least in SCG opens). This is obviously a bigger problem against the belcher you faced, but even if that is less of an issue against high tide or show and tell, I think you will agree with me that it is still quite often significant.
That’s one of the reasons I accept to lose game ones more often. I’ll focus on the second and main reason after the paragraph on discard..
Considering precisely shardless and our deckbuilding philosophies another major difference in that you are very focused on discard to disrupt the opponent. I can’t fault you much on precisely the main deck card choices because that is linked to the basic philosophy. Once you want to beat combo main deck in a shardless build, you have to run discard which is the most versatile disrupt available. Since you cascade you also want to lean more on htt which are also better as a whole against fair decks (whereas targeted discard is better against combo).
Problem is that you need more targeted discard post sb for combo because two copies aren’t enough against the fastest combo decks. In the end with the sb htt (which maybe should be a duress, but I didn't calculated your sideboard tables) you play 8 sorcery discards post sb which is a lot and is a problem on several points :
-You end up being pretty weak to people prepared for discard, which mostly means running leyline of sanctity. This is up to the point that you decided in the finals (maybe semi-finals not sure) of the invitational to side out all of your discard out except the two lilianas. For someone that wants to be prepared for combo this isn’t very convincing.
There are other considerations like misdirection and people keeping flust/divert but leyline is the main one by far and is played enough for it to matter alone.
-You will more often play games against combo opponents where you draw too many discards and not enough threats. Letting them rebuild at one point in which they’ll probably have a window to win.
-Sometimes the opponent will be on a plan that specifically dodges discard. This can be playing sneak attack and waiting for cantrip into a creature, or a storm player laying his mana artefacts until he can draw a tutor/business spell. If you don’t draw a tarmogoyf or pulse these situations are a problem when you are too focused on one kind of disruption.
Now that I gave all these elements I’ll focus on the second main reason that we should favor post sb games.
When Magic authors talk about sideboards in their articles they often point out how important post board games are since they are often 2/3 of the games and generally at least ½. They don’t remind it often outside of these dedicated articles, but this is something I always keep in mind.
Let’s look at some basic stats :
50% G1 win / 50% SB win -> 50% Match win
If you win game one 50% of the time and post sb games 50% of the time, you’ll win the match 50% of the time. That was just to be sure everyone could read the next lines :
60% G1 win / 60% SB win -> 64.8% Match win
70% G1 win / 70% SB win -> 78.4% Match win
50% G1 win / 60% SB win -> 60% Match win
60% G1 win / 50% SB win -> 55% Match win
30% G1 win / 70% SB win -> 61.6% Match win !
These stats not only show that a game % advantage will be even stronger as a match win % (compare 60%/60% with 70%/70%), they also show with ones in bold the weight of post sb games.
These two statistical “evidences” (I wanted to use the word evidence because in French that means “obvious thing”^^) show the prevalence of having a good post-sb match-up.
While I’m at it and because I was curious about this for myself I’ll try to do a “perilous” statistical comparison between our lists against a combo match-up.
Since I want to mainly focus on the overall impact of preparing main deck versus preparing in particular the sideboard, I’ll give you a favor and exclude combo decks that could be weak to whipflare (EtW storm variants, elves…) as well as combo decks that run leyline of sanctity (S&T decks mainly). The most played combo deck if I use these requirements is clearly UB ANT/PIF, let’s say the cantrip version that doesn’t run burning wish for EtW.
Because these storm builds don’t differ a lot and because I now have plenty of experience with the deck, I think I can give pretty accurate estimations on the match-up percentages. I also used to run a lot of discard at the beginning like you do.
Because I didn’t want to be too far from reality I also asked his estimations to my friend Tristan Polzl who played the deck a ton and is currently running 73 of my 75 after playing as much discard as you did for a while. I did the average of our two estimations. Difference was either 0 or 5% (Note that I was always kinder to your list and less to mine than Tristan).
To simplify let’s say we have the same clock even if I run revoker and clique for that reason too (and liliana is some kind of a clock). This way we can focus on the disruption to give estimations.
When I say « about » before the % it’s because I had to make an average between our estimations.
Versus UB ANT (pre sb)
Lejay’s list : 4 fow 4 Lili– 4 DRS – 4 wasteland -> about 27,5% to win
Gerry’s list : 3 fow 3 htt – 2 thoughtseize – 4 DRS – 2 wasteland -> about 42.5% to win
So I give you a 15 percentage points advantage.
Versus UB ANT (post sb)
Lejay’s list : 4 fow 4 lili – 2 thoughtseize – 2 duress – 2 V.clique – 2 P.revoker – 2 LlotV – 1 G.cage – 4 DRS – 4 Wasteland -> 65% to win
Gerry’s list : 3 fow – 2 lili – 4 htt – 4 thoughtseize – 3 Nihil S. 4 DRS 2 wasteland - >60% to win
To simplify again let’s consider equal the relevance of the cycling ability of Nihil Spellbomb and the relevance of a tempo free definitive turn 0 leyline + 2 life saved with duress. Differences end up being that where you have 4 HTT I have 2 revokers, 2 cliques, 4th fow, 3th and 4th waste and 3th/4th liliana
Having 5 more percentage points seems pretty fair to me and Tristan when comparing both.
Keep in mind these percentages are evaluated as if no player makes a mistake. If unfortunately you disagree with one or several estimation, please note it now and consider also if I was too kind on the removal of some factors from the equation.
If these data are accurate then overall % to win the match is :
Lejay’s list : (0.275*0.65) + (0.275*0.35*0.65) + (0.725*0.65*0.65) = 0.17875 + 0.0625625 + 0.3063125 = 0.547625 so 54,76% of winning the match against UB ANT
% to lose is 1- 0.547625 or (0.275*0.35*0.35) + (0.725*0.65*0.35) + (0.725*0.35) = 0.0336875 + 0.1649375 + 0.25375 = 0.452375 so 45.24% of losing the match.
Gerry’s list : (0.425*0.6) + (0.425*0.4*0.6) + (0.575*0.6*0.6) = 0.255 + 0.102 + 0.207 = 0.564 so 56,4% of winning the match against UB ANT
% to lose is 1-0.564 or (0.425*0.4*0.4) + (0.575*0.6*0.4) + (0.575*0.4) = 0.068 + 0.138 + 0.23 = 0.436 so 43.6% of losing the match.
So hoping you won’t disagree on the first evaluations overall, your philosophy of preparing the combo match-up for game one as opposed to my philosophy of bringing the more targeted weapons post sb, gives you 1.64 percentage points more of winning a match versus the UB ANT example. That is not significant at all, especially considering the variance of a tournament and that I saved you from some considerations (post-sb clock, EtW plan against other versions).
From what I know fair decks are still widely the most represented decks in legacy and in SCG opens in particular. So now compare what you gained to what you lose against fair decks in all your game ones by running discard instead of, basically, liliana. Not only the times the game is in topdeck mode and you draw or cascade discard. But also the times where you have it in hand and need a board presence/removal to keep up with the game pace. This isn’t about getting the rug match-up from 65 to 75 %. This is about improving almost ALL the fair match-ups.
Playing this deck a lot I think you know very well that the main way to lose with it against fair decks is to be behind on the board so that your very strong late game doesn’t ever goes into the equation.
The last element I’ll remind is that I don’t completely disregard combo game one. I’m not running URG cascade. It’s just that I limit the disruption to cards that are good at helping the deck reaching the late game and winning the late game. Which is, even if the deck can switch roles sometimes, by far the main game plan.
Last edited by Lejay; 06-21-2013 at 09:36 AM.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Fantastic post. I love to read about the philosophy behind the deck and why people make certain choices.
Keep them coming
Currently Playing: Scapefit , Shardless BUG, Team America,
Despite i've stopped playing Shardless BUG in favor of BUGstill because it's better, I'm still tinkering.
Has anyone tried a similar SB?:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Duress
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 general cards like Jitte/ Liliana/ Garruk etc.
I've done very well at tournaments with Shardless BUG. I was only disappointed when i was playing against too much Combodecks, so i think I'm going to try a SB where almost all Cards are dedicated to Combo. Obviously i side Shardless Agent out, which is really bad against combo sometimes. T3 tap out and cascade into..... Deathrite Shaman. Oh wow. I'm dead.
I hope you all do know how powerful Flusterstorm is against Combo ;)
TheRiedl on Magic Online
About Magic Online:
I can play legacy whenever I want. Cardboard has no value. Data has no value. My time and enjoyment has high value to me. More legacy = more fun. Buy in.
I prefer Shardless BUG to BUG Still, why do you think BUG Still is better? I like the addition of Flusterstorm. Siding out Shardless Agent against combo isn't something I've tried to be honest. I usually drop Abrupt Decay and maybe Baleful Strix.
Last edited by yaWgnorW; 06-24-2013 at 07:56 PM.
Baleful Strix goes out of course. Against many combo decks abrupt decay has its uses and should stay in as a 2-3of.
Show variants have defense grid.
Storm has confidant/carpet of flowers/xantid swarm or LEDs they want to protect from discard.
Reanimate has animate dead
Vs. combo tapping out for shardless agent is only viable if you set-it up to hit discard. But then again you could just cast this discard and kill without a 2/2.... Random cascades gets worse of the hate sided in like surgical, flusterstorm, golgari charm,... Best plan vs. combo is to
side out agent.
Currently playing: Elves
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote