Miracle Control

[oarsman]

I expect the RIP version to run into trouble in mirrors after the M14 rule change. The ability to pressure an opposing Jace will become much more significant, and RIP/Helm seems least able to do it. Miracles isn't popular enough for that to kill the version, but it is a downside.




Although immediately after posting that, I realized that the punishing fire version won't be able to pressure a Jace either with RIP in play. So maybe it balances out.

[blacknapkins]

They are in the same bucket in the context that PFire doesn't interact with any of these combo decks. We could create another bucket and put Aluren in there, since PFire interacts with that combo... somewhat. Under that context, these PFires could have been O-Ring, or extra counterspell.

My prediction is that Miracle will split into 3 versions:
1. Rip-Helm
2. PFire
3. non-PFire, includes Snapcaster

We either hate the graveyard utilization or join it, no in-between. If a version of Miracle doesn't utilize Rip or PFire or Snapcaster, it's bound to fail, in my humble speculation.

I agree. After playtesting a bunch with Punishing Miracles I am confident that people will adopt it as a viable strategy for U/W control. In my experience (and as has been mentioned above) the combo matchups have been a little more difficult but BGx matchups have improved substantially. I have yet to playtest against Deathblade very much, and I am saddened to see that lists are taking out the Confidants for maindeck Geists as it makes things more difficult, but on the whole I expect PFires to be effective against Esper lists as well.

To combat the combo matchups I am considering putting a couple Spell Pierces in the maindeck again. Storm combo is actually not that bad a matchup for the PFires list. The most difficult combo matchup are the Show and Tell variants, which are almost unbeatable game 1. Post board my Punishing Miracles list has the following for Show and Tell:

4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Surgical Extraction

I think that should be enough to put the matchup on even ground for the Miracles player, if not in our advantage slightly.

[sauce]

I agree. After playtesting a bunch with Punishing Miracles I am confident that people will adopt it as a viable strategy for U/W control. In my experience (and as has been mentioned above) the combo matchups have been a little more difficult but BGx matchups have improved substantially. I have yet to playtest against Deathblade very much, and I am saddened to see that lists are taking out the Confidants for maindeck Geists as it makes things more difficult, but on the whole I expect PFires to be effective against Esper lists as well.

To combat the combo matchups I am considering putting a couple Spell Pierces in the maindeck again. Storm combo is actually not that bad a matchup for the PFires list. The most difficult combo matchup are the Show and Tell variants, which are almost unbeatable game 1. Post board my Punishing Miracles list has the following for Show and Tell:

4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Surgical Extraction

I think that should be enough to put the matchup on even ground for the Miracles player, if not in our advantage slightly.

I've been able to dominate combo with my list - http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

EDIT: except sneak attack

[alphastryk]

I've been able to dominate combo with my list - http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

EDIT: except sneak attack

I'm highly suspicious of that manabase. Seems to me like you're missing out on one of the big reasons to play this deck (lots of basics), and casting UU spells on time seems highly suspect.

[sauce]

I'm highly suspicious of that manabase. Seems to me like you're missing out on one of the big reasons to play this deck (lots of basics), and casting UU spells on time seems highly suspect.

the deck has 8 fetchlands which all fetch U plus 4 duals that tap for U and 3 basics that tap for U. it actually has one more U source in colonnade if needed.
I have not had a bad draw with the deck where I kept a hand that was not going to cast CB in my hand on t2. plus you have top etc.
I am not saying the manabase is not suspect but it works, just give it a try.

[oarsman]

sauce, that may seem like a lot, but it is significantly less blue than non-punishing fire builds run. I don't blame alphastryk for questioning it. I played four matches with kaosjr's punishing list and found the manabase frightening.

[sauce]

sauce, that may seem like a lot, but it is significantly less blue than non-punishing fire builds run. I don't blame alphastryk for questioning it. I played four matches with kaosjr's punishing list and found the manabase frightening.

im not denying it's worse than the UWr (for red blasts in sb) list, but i may have been luckier than normal. I just find it okay to draw the groves early since it only hurts vs combo where you dont get to plate turn 2 cb.
EDIT:
also I changed -1 karakas +1 c.colonnade from kaosjr's list as well as some other cards like going up to 4 JTMS

[kaosjr]

The manabase in my version definitely plays out differently than others. I find myself playing basics early to stabilize and then their wastelands don't really matter once you jam your jace with the first non basic of the match. Alternatively you can just run out non basics since most wasteland decks can't punish you very much mana wise outside of RUG which isn't very popular ATM.

[alphastryk]

The manabase in my version definitely plays out differently than others. I find myself playing basics early to stabilize and then their wastelands don't really matter once you jam your jace with the first non basic of the match. Alternatively you can just run out non basics since most wasteland decks can't punish you very much mana wise outside of RUG which isn't very popular ATM.

Yeah, all the lands that don't make blue scare me against combo. I have 4 and I've been losing enough hands to Karakas, Plains, etc. not making UU on time, and you have 3 more UU spells and 1 less U land, along with colonnade that doesn't make U right away. Maybe there's less combo in your metagame, so it might be fine there.

I have definitely found that wasteland decks can punish you pretty hard if you stumble at all - I'm likely to run into some combination of DnT, Goblins, Maverick, and Loam at least twice every week, but maybe my LGS just has a disproportionate number of wastelands?

[sauce]

Yeah, all the lands that don't make blue scare me against combo. I have 4 and I've been losing enough hands to Karakas, Plains, etc. not making UU on time. Maybe there's less combo in your metagame, so it might be fine there.

I have definitely found that wasteland decks can punish you pretty hard if you stumble at all - I'm likely to run into some combination of DnT, Goblins, Maverick, and Loam at least twice every week, but maybe my LGS just has a disproportionate number of wastelands?

I would play Reanimator or AggroLoam w/ CoTV main in that meta.

[alphastryk]

I would play Reanimator or AggroLoam w/ CoTV main in that meta.

Playing Loam mirrors sounds absolutely miserable. I've been doing just fine with a RIP Miracles list, so I see no reason to change it up.

[Poron]

part of this deck power is its mana base stability and another part is Blood Moon (way better than Back to Basics, because it shuts off even new lands and new fetchlands)

so aggressivity (sidely, at least) on Lands is definitly something that has been proven succesfully with this deck, and it's part of its power.

Punishing Fire doesn't allow you to be any aggressive on that side. To me, a huge loss. If PWs are all that problem (and they are) we should start playing some Pithing Needle

[sauce]

part of this deck power is its mana base stability and another part is Blood Moon (way better than Back to Basics, because it shuts off even new lands and new fetchlands)

so aggressivity (sidely, at least) on Lands is definitly something that has been proven succesfully with this deck, and it's part of its power.

Punishing Fire doesn't allow you to be any aggressive on that side. To me, a huge loss. If PWs are all that problem (and they are) we should start playing some Pithing Needle

You're going to want to use that pithing needle on yourself when opponent plays Bob or Delver though. Plus Abrupt decay is a card.

[Poron]

matter of strategies.

Against BUG I only work to resolve a single Blood Moon, from that point, the first sweeper is gg (I play 6)
The last problem with that deck is Liliana and Jace. Leyline of Sanctity helps a lot thought is definitly not enough

[sauce]

matter of strategies.

Against BUG I only work to resolve a single Blood Moon, from that point, the first sweeper is gg (I play 6)
The last problem with that deck is Liliana and Jace. Leyline of Sanctity helps a lot thought is definitly not enough

all those problems are solved by playing punishing fire (vs BUG)

[Poron]

A card that gets totally screwed by anything that takes the graveyard and by the most common land ever: Wasteland

Tarmogoyf would still be 4/5 5/6 because of the lack of Rest in Peace.

I can't get myself comfortable with Punishing Fire in Miracle

- mana base totally screwed
- a whole, very reliable strategy, Blood Moon, screwed
- Moongose+Goyfs pops back up as threaths differently than against RiP lists.

Punishing Fire is good in decks that want to use themselves the graveyard. Snapcaster Mage based ones or Jund that packs lot of Moongose/Goyfs.
PF is also perfect in aggro Loam because they abuse of the graveyard and they can recover their Burnillows from Wastelands.

We can't and we don't use the graveyard at all. Rather our strongest WC resides on a grave-hate card.

[kaosjr]

I'm not sure why everyone is so terrified of wasteland. Just bait them into wasting some other land like tundra or karakas. If they're saving their waste for you're grove then you're also perfectly fine with that as well.

[sauce]

I'm not sure why everyone is so terrified of wasteland. Just bait them into wasting some other land like tundra or karakas. If they're saving their waste for you're grove then you're also perfectly fine with that as well.

Also, play enough lands, I only lost to wasteland when it was 3-4, never lost to 1-2 with this deck.

[twndomn]

We can't and we don't use the graveyard at all. Rather our strongest WC resides on a grave-hate card.

If you can just stop being self-centered for one second, and then correct your English sentence to: I can't and I don't use the graveyard at all. Rather my strongest WC resides on a grave-hate card. You name is not we, you don't stand for We.

Because apparently, if you learn to read, other people have done quite well and wrote tournament reports when they have RiP in the SB, or none at all.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm not sure why everyone is so terrified of wasteland. Just bait them into wasting some other land like tundra or karakas. If they're saving their waste for you're grove then you're also perfectly fine with that as well.

First off, if you don't have a healthy respect for Wasteland in a 3 color list with no land recursion, I'm not sure you should be taken seriously by me or anyone else. Also, if they are playing Jund and its past turn 3, I'd say they aren't gonna take your Tundra bait seriously...unless they have the same misguided lack of respect for the card as well. Or they're stupid.

One more thing, if you are fine with them hitting your Grove, How do you plan on dealing with the Lilianas they resolve?

-ABC