Slivers in Modern?

[LeaPlath]

So. We are getting another sliver lord at 2 mana, and some other intresting slivers, so what do you guys think to Slivers in Modern?

I've been playing around with GWB Slivers, playing it at Junk aggro backed up with all the removal, and the ability to win versus decks like Pod that want to gain infinate life using poison from Virulent Sliver, but I've worked on other builds.

So what do people think? Can slivers be a deck in modern? Maybe even a counter slivers type build?

[firebadmattgood]

Needs a hexproof sliver at 2 mana or it's just merfolk with worse mana.

[cartoonist]

Junk is the best shell for them right now, with decent discard and elimination backup. Those colors bring the power/toughness boosters and cheap, useful options. I still think Frenzy Sliver has potential, just because he's a pseudo lord. That's what I'll be building. The little buggers have always been my favorite tribe.

[Pinder]

Needs a hexproof sliver at 2 mana or it's just merfolk with worse mana.

Yep. The viability of a Sliver deck in any format really depends on having a way to protect them from targeted removal because you need a critical mass of dudes in order for your guys to be effective.

as a color scheme seems intriguing - you don't have access to Crystalline sliver so you might as well drop blue and use proactive discard to protect your guys rather than countermagic.

If you're looking for a third color besides white and green that isn't blue, though, red is definitely worth checking out. Due to Time Spiral, Spined Sliver is in Modern and you get another one-drop sliver in Striking Sliver with a relevant ability (albeit one that doesn't stack). Access to 8 lords, Spined Sliver and Sidewinder Sliver can make combat ridiculously unfair for your opponent so long as you can keep your dudes protected (crossing my fingers for a green hexproof sliver). You could also run Virulent Sliver as a way to get around decks that gain infinite life, which would give you 12 1-drop slivers in the main.

Something like this:

4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Spined Sliver
4 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
4 Virulent Sliver

4 Path to Exile
4 Boros Charm
4 Aether Vial
2-4 Lightning Bolt
2-4 Hive Stirrings

4 Cavern of Souls
16 Lands


All 3 modes of Boros Charm are surprisingly relevant for a sliver build. The damage gives you the reach to push through the last few points of damage, the double-strike is a neat combat trick/another way to push through more damage, and the indestructibility saves you from overextending into sweepers and from most removal.

Of course, I'm not as familiar with the Modern metagame as I was with Legacy, so all of these card choices were made in a vacuum. It's likely any list would need tweaking to adapt to specific strategies.

edit: Also, if you're looking at a build, I would take a look at Blind Obedience. Having all of their potential blockers come down tapped is a huge tempo swing for you, and extort gives you a bit of inevitability if the ground game gets clogged.

[LeaPlath]

Yeah. I think Slivers in modern need to go in a different direction. Without an evasion sliver and hexproof sliver in Bant, I don't think Counterslivers can work, and the mana base will be a little shakey and painful.

Couple of ideas:

UWR Slivers - A tempoey sliver build. Boros Charm, Burn, Izzet Charm, counters, the good UWR slivers and frenetic sliver to avoid removal. I played around with this and found it a lot more resistant to removal because you have a 50% chance to avoid it which means it is harder to get blown out.

RWB Slivers - Basically lords, removal and sedge sliver. Needs to run a lot more swamps as shocks etc so you can trigger all the sliver buffs.

[Amon Amarth]

Yeah. I think Slivers in modern need to go in a different direction. Without an evasion sliver and hexproof sliver in Bant, I don't think Counterslivers can work, and the mana base will be a little shakey and painful.

Couple of ideas:

UWR Slivers - A tempoey sliver build. Boros Charm, Burn, Izzet Charm, counters, the good UWR slivers and frenetic sliver to avoid removal. I played around with this and found it a lot more resistant to removal because you have a 50% chance to avoid it which means it is harder to get blown out.

RWB Slivers - Basically lords, removal and sedge sliver. Needs to run a lot more swamps as shocks etc so you can trigger all the sliver buffs.

A three color mana base seems fine with Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial putting in a ton of work.

If we could just be blessed with another ridiculous hexproof creature that'd be great. It's not like Wizards gives half a fuck about toning those guys down. :P

[nedleeds]

Just Merfolk with worse mana? In a format with no wasteland ... nice in depth analysis.

How about Junk slivers gets to play actual removal spells. Actual hand disruption. Instead of making random inane statements you should compare apples to apples, like - why play the slivers over the men that GWB already has available - e.g. Goyf, Ooze, Smiter, etc.

[elof]

One of moderns best Slivers is Mirror Entity and should be worth including.

[firebadmattgood]

Just Merfolk with worse mana? In a format with no wasteland ... nice in depth analysis.

How about Junk slivers gets to play actual removal spells.

You mean the way merfolk decks in modern splash white for path or red for bolt and moon effects?

Actual hand disruption.

That's a fair point.

Instead of making random inane statements you should compare apples to apples, like - why play the slivers over the men that GWB already has available - e.g. Goyf, Ooze, Smiter, etc.

Yeah, comparing decks that win through tribal dudes that pump each other is just totally inane and random. Are you high?

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, comparing decks that win through tribal dudes that pump each other is just totally inane and random. Are you high?

Well, okay, sure, we've established that Slivers is worse as a tribal deck than Merfolk. Everyone knows that. Now: is Slivers worse as an aggro deck than Junk or Naya? Clearly, the existence of Merfolk does not invalidate those decks.

See, if we were looking at U/x Slivers, the comparison to the 'folk would be pertinent. As it is, we're talking about decks in completely different colors built to play in completely different ways. Goblins isn't worse than Merfolk in Legacy just because it has fewer lords and no Force of Will: despite both being tribal decks, the two are worlds apart when it comes to game play.

His point - that we should compare a Sliver deck to an aggro deck that already exists in those colors - is fair. Slivers doesn't necessarily have to follow the same path in Modern it took in Legacy; it can compete with different decks for different metagame niches.

EDIT: The problem with Junk Slivers is that none of the black Slivers are actually any good, with the possible exception of Necrotic Sliver. I don't know that there are enough G/W Slivers to support a creature base entirely from those, and four colors seems a mite bit greedy to me.

[firebadmattgood]

I must be confused. I thought we were talking about a deck that wins through two drops that buff each other. If we're talking about a variation on junk that plays sinew sliver instead of goyf, then I guess I'm done here.

[kaiserruhsam]

Sedge Sliver, urborg, and Ancient whateverthehell give it another lord, some shitty regeneration, and a third free 5-color land (cavern, pool, zig). Still needs evasion and protection, although you can kludge together evasion with flanking and trample.

[lyracian]

Sedge Sliver, urborg, and Ancient whateverthehell give it another lord, some ***** regeneration, and a third free 5-color land (cavern, pool, zig). Still needs evasion and protection, although you can kludge together evasion with flanking and trample.

I do not really like Ancient Ziggurat in a competitive deck. I have played around with it and it just struggles when you need to cast non-creature stuff. I might run one as a 5th Cavern.

Two Sedge Sliver's seems a nice boost but other than actually wanting Swamps in play Modern Slivers just seems to be a Naya deck. It would be nice to get it to work but I am not sure it will ever be more than a fun deck.

[LeaPlath]

Was playing around and I found a Naya Sliver shell to be the best.

It doesn't have much resilience to combo, but it can play Bolt and Path that screws over some combo decks.

Right now, In my list I'm running the fist strike sliver, flanking sliver, two headed sliver both of the lords, the reach and vigilance sliver,. This is 28 slivers.

This means the curve is only on a 1-2 mana curve, so you could play AEther vial, but extra vials in hand and no way to filter them away like in Merfolk.

In the deck I'm running I've got 22 lands, 28 slivers. Then 10 spells, which are 4 bolt, 4 path and two empty slots.

I am thinking of maybe putting in something to give my slivers hexproof, cause they kill a lord and it can quickly go down hill.

[Aggro_zombies]

Was playing around and I found a Naya Sliver shell to be the best.

It doesn't have much resilience to combo, but it can play Bolt and Path that screws over some combo decks.

Right now, In my list I'm running the fist strike sliver, flanking sliver, two headed sliver both of the lords, the reach and vigilance sliver,. This is 28 slivers.

This means the curve is only on a 1-2 mana curve, so you could play AEther vial, but extra vials in hand and no way to filter them away like in Merfolk.

In the deck I'm running I've got 22 lands, 28 slivers. Then 10 spells, which are 4 bolt, 4 path and two empty slots.

I am thinking of maybe putting in something to give my slivers hexproof, cause they kill a lord and it can quickly go down hill.

Why the reach sliver over Spined Sliver (semi-lord) or Cautery Sliver?

[Barook]

There's a Winged Sliver for now. How does this change things?

[Pinder]

There's a Winged Sliver for now. How does this change things?

It pretty much just means that you could start running 4 of them more safely because a 1/1 flyer for U is a lot better than for 1U. Countersliver lists typically run only 3 Winged Sliver because the ability doesn't stack and it's rather terrible by itself.

I'm also interested in Syphon Sliver, myself. I used to run Essence Sliver in my board in Legacy Countersliver (Meathooks) back in the day, and getting essentially the same effect for 1 less mana is really attractive.

That said, blue and black are arguably the worst colors for Modern playable slivers. Although Cavern of Souls exists and is an obvious include in any sort of Sliver deck,as is Aether Vial so moving into 4- or 5-color in Modern may actually be doable. The biggest problem would be finding room.

Off the top of my head:

4 Striking Sliver
4 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Spined Sliver

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
3-4 Boros Charm
3-4 Simic Charm

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Reflecting Pool
12-14 other lands.

edit - Mirror Entity could probably make it in as maybe a 2-of if you can find room; it's 3 mana and it's only really good later when you have spare mana to pump all of your dudes (in the early game you want to be spending mana on creatures).

[ActionJunkie]

There's a Winged Sliver for now. How does this change things?

Just being a 1/1 Sliver for 1 is great and under-appreciated by those who have no experience with Slivers.

IMO, we are there for Slivers to be at least tier 1.5 and possibly tier 1. Looking forward to play-testing with them soon.

[Allenthar]

What about Kira, Great Glass-Spinner as protection from removal? It's not as good as hexproof, but most decks don't want to 2-for-1 to kill a creature.

[Phoenix Ignition]

What about Kira, Great Glass-Spinner as protection from removal? It's not as good as hexproof, but most decks don't want to 2-for-1 to kill a creature.

I don't think this is a viable substitution. I've taken it out of Merfolk, even, since Abrupt Decay is just too good and used too frequently. Not sure if that directly translates to Slivers, but I don't think it's worth it.