An Affinity player doesn't need to run terrible answers to terrible cards run against them. Needle is unreliable, since it doesn't actually kill anything and if the Affinity player runs Arcbound Ravager, they can respond to a late Needle. Infest is the best card a Smallpox player can run against Affinity because it punishes the very Zerg-rush strategy that Affinity uses to beat Smallpox decks. Null Rod is technically the best card against Affinity, but Infest gets the nod since it's actually relevant against other decks.Originally Posted by Hardcore
It cost three to play though. Seems dangerously slow=(
It's not slow. You have discard and edict effects to make Infest pretty damaging. It makes the Affinity player think twice about going all-in on fast critters, and if they keep slower hands as a result, that favors you because it makes your plan A of just stripping their lands and creatures much easier.
When 3 mana blasts 3 creatures into the yard, it's totally worth it. Older builds of Pox that needed to deal with and keep creatures off the table would run 4 E. Plagues & 3-4 Infest. I used to run the 4 Plague + 4 Infest config before Liliana and Cursed Scroll. Had it not been my passion for LD and Wasteland, I'd even run 2 Mutiliate on top of that.
Pox's ultimate weakness is creatures. Cards in hand usually aren't threatening and since we pack too much discard, it's usually a moot point. We pack automated Land Destruction in 8 Pox effects, if you choose to run that many and up to 16 LD cards with Waste and Sinks.
Most Pox decks don't run much targeted removal spells. The permanents of Liliana and what not usually keep creatures off the field slowly.
Combo / Control should be easy. Both decks require cards (Hymn feeder) and land and neither use many creatures outside stormed EtW or Dredge.
The other weakness is Graveyard recurrsion decks since we bin so many on all sides. I run 5 creature hate and 5 GY hate for those are Pox's worst matchups me thinks.
@Omni @Chatto,
You guys experimented with the LoamPox build as I recall. What were your reasons for trying it and then moving back to the mono black strategy? I think you may have said it was too "durdely" or something.
I said it durdled too much. Or more specifically, I found myself spending more time Loaming and playing a Loamed land then actually accomplishing something beneficial. The Mono-Black approach with Lilliana + Cursed Scroll working in tandem does far more than a Loamed wasteland or a Loamed Cabal Pit etc. etc. Loam also made me curse the Extirpates and Tormod's Crypts in developed metas.
By bringing in Loam, your lands and your Loam's become huge targets and since Loam decks are nearly half land and 2-3 Life from the Loams, your deck is now like 50% dependant on your yard.
My mono-B Liliana Sinkhole Pox can lose its yard, I'll look at you and say: "Congrats, you just rid yourself of a recurring 2/2. Let Liliana and Cursed Scroll pin you down instead..."
I used to run Sensei's Divining Top, then I took a Pithing Needle to the knee. To survive a longer game using LD/Discard hybrid Pox, strong permanents that do something nasty to the table and generate card advantage is necessary. Loam and Sensei's Top do not accomplish that, Liliana and cursed Scroll do. Sure they're tried and tested and 'old' by now but unfortuantely, I play with whatever brings me the best results. Play to win, if it's not broke, dont' fix it, and so I once again net-deck Reid Duke's old Pox and just tweak it a little here and there...
I was not satisfied with Bg LoamPox for a couple reasons:
First, the manabase is too fragile. I walked into Stifle one to many times, making me feeling even slower. I tried to compensade with Deathrite Shaman, but it never felt right. Also playing Smallpox sometimes meant awkward desicions: what land to sac etc. 'But what about LotL?' I hear you asking
Second, I almost never wanted to dredge. Even with a Top in play I almost always regretted dredging a wincon or much needed discard, LD or Lily. I also didn't feel comfortable being depended of my graveyard.
Third, I feel like having more grip on the game with MBP: it seems more focused. Mind you, I still play Top (giving me a sense of being able to be even more focused and even pro-active) I love how it can help me get those cards I really need.
Fourth, and this can really be just me, I found Nether Void really powerfull but I never got it really working in Bg LoamPox. To me this is partly because of the lousy manabase Bg has to offer.
So, the reasons presented above made me change back to MBP, but I still experiment with Bg LoamPox. I dropped LotL and only played Decay, Pulse, Grip and Deed, making those hard matchups for MBP easier. I also tried Deathrite Shaman. Still, I really didn't like the manabase :) For now I'm going to stick with MBP.
Long live the MBP. It has a solid and straightfoward game plan.
My next try on MBP is:
-1 innocent blood (current running 4)
-1 esnaring bridge (was using 2 MD)
+2 Infernal Tutor
I'm saving $ for Nether Void. If Infernal tuto runs good i will do:
-1 Esnaring Bridge (Both going to SB)
+1 Nether Void
I'm very positive about Infernal Tutor. I remember a lot of matchs remaining with 1 card in hand and hoping to draw or SDT an answer to a threat. Also, running Infernal Tutor increases your threats counts by 1 (since you can fetch every card you want in hellbent mode)
The best targets for Infernal Tutor in my opinion will be the cards that I usually run only 1 or 2 in the MD: (excluding SB options here)
Tabernacle
Nether Void/Bridge
Cursed Scroll
Nether Spirit
Whenever I think of Loam Pox I think of all the graveyard hate, like RIP, Leyline, but especially Surgical Extraction as it is fairly common. I had Punishing Jund bring in Surgicals against me and that was scary enough with just a few non-basic lands, Spirit and a couple Ghasts in the yard and Crucible in play.
Still, if I were to try Loam Pox I may try to just go all the way with the land recursion and tricks and just hate against graveyard hate. Hopefully it wouldnt just be a worse version of Pox or AggroLoam. This would try to swarm early with man lands, draw, play and sac two lands a turn with Exploration. Tutor with Entomb and Crop Rotation. maybe sac and recurr urami a time or two for some demons. Just off the top of my head it might go something like this:
Exploration Loam Pox
1 Nether Spirit
3 Bloodghast
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Entomb
1 Worm Harvest
1 Syphon Life
1 Raven's Crime
2 Life from the Loam
2 Pox
4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Mox. Diamond
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tomb of Urami
Side
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozeliek
1 Thoughtsieze
3 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Krosan Grip
There, you just named it: graveyardhate and hating graveyard out. I don't want to be the one answering threats: I am the threat. I don't want to use cards to protect my graveyard, screw that! And the manabase you presented: you just gave a classic example why I don't like Bg. In this example you play two swamp and really depend on the non-basics. So much so, that you will have problems of keeping double black, therefore being more reliable on LotL. That means depending on your graveyard, again.
Using Crop Rotation: sac a land: green? or a non-basic, but which one? Perhaps Urborg and incidentally screwing yourself over for not having double black or even triple black for Pox?
I like your idea, but there is way too much 'what if' and 'what to do' going on in your example-list, at least to me that is :-)
While being all graveyard dependent, the point of Crop Rotation , Entomb and Mox Diamond would be to put more lands in the yard for nefarious Loam purposes, which you could play two or more a turn depending on how many Explorations you had out. The idea being that you would actually Want to dredge for Loam, like in Pox you should actually Want to Pox.
But two black is often a problem enough in the mono black build, which does make me wary of splashing green. I lost to OmniTell recently because in two of the three games I could never get a second black mana, or even a Ritual. I still have love -hate with Rituals too.
The increasing prominance of Deathrite Shaman is a problem too. You used to not have to worry about common meta maindeck graveyard hate to exile your Spirit, or use the sacced lands to mana ramp, defeating the loss from the LD or Pox effect. Makes it harder to break the Pox symmetry.
@Chatto. Blood Moon and Back to Basics becomes more of a problem as well whenever you run across those on occasion.
I think if I were getting spendy I would be tempted to go with The Abyss over Nether Void, but I have had trouble with killing as many creatures as get top-drawn. Will likely add Perish as was suggested, maybe even a singleton Dystopia. Nether Void, for that cost, I would hope could protect your Liliana's from Abrupt Decay.
I think you're playing the Dredge matchup wrong. I've had very favorable results with Pox, especially post-board but also preboard, and I've never had to board in so many cards.
Hymn and Liliana are awful, but Innocent Blood still has value. Dredge is an aggro deck that kills you with creatures. You need to interact with their creatures. Blood takes out a Narc or zombie token to slow down the hordes, keeps them off a critical 3 creatures for Dread Return and acts as a sac outlet for YOU to sac your own Factory or Spirit to exile Bridges. You want to be aggressively Wastelanding and Innocent Blooding your own Mishra's Factories to kill bridges. Smallpox also works for this in a pinch.
You shouldn't be wasting Extirpate on Bridges, since you have other ways to exile those. Depending on what their graveyard looks like, first Extirpate target should be either a dredger (if that is the only one) or Ichorid. Ichorid should be an Extirpate priority since you have pretty much no other way to interact with that card and it will end up dealing you a lot of grindy damage and making lots of zombies (Ich killed you in both games). In G2/G3 focus on blowing up black sources to keep them off Ashen Ghouls since they probably boarded out the Dread Return combo package to go on the Ghoul plan. With 0 black mana and Ichorid Extirpated, they can barely produce any dudes at all and are seriously slowed down. Narcomoebas aren't that scary. You can win against Narcomoebas and their limited zombie tokens with your creature removal, blowing up your own Factories, Ratchets, etc. Without the recursion of Ichorid and Ghoul their army is a lot less scary!
Pithing Needle on Coliseum isn't that great. Just keep him off 2 lands and he'll never get to activate Coliseum. Needle on Phantasmagorian maybe if they're playing that build, but otherwise that is going to be completely dead a lot of the time.
1-of Karakas seems bad. Unlikely to see it. It's your only answer to Iona and answers absolutely nothing else. If they go with the Ghoul plan, it's dead. Smallpox is better... keeps them off lands to activate Coliseum and Ghoul, keeps them off 3 creatures for Dread Return.
Engineered Plague is iffy. I guess this answers Ichorid and Ghoul, but you're not going to see 2 to shut off zombie tokens. I would try to get value out of Innocent Bloods and Smallpoxes before trying to E. Plague zombies.
Trinisphere is tempting but hurts you more. They can just forget Dread Return, go DDD and just beat you down with Ichorids, Ghouls, Narcomoebas and tokens without casting any spells all game. Meanwhile, Trinisphere makes all your spells cost more and slows you down from interacting.
Dark Ritual is worse in this MU. Ritual is best for explosive turn 1/2 plays to blow up their hand/board and gain tempo. That simply does not work against dredge; you need to play a reactive game and shut them down. Ritual gets worse when you cut Hymn and Liliana anyway.
Maybe -4 Hymn -4 Liliana -2 Dark Ritual
+3 E. Plague + 2 Ratchet + 2 Nihil +3 Extirpate
Have you tried Drop of Honey at any point? ;)
Dredge is easy, sort of. It got a reputation for sure, but this mainly comes from Meta s unprepared for it. Actually the deck is just a black weenie with a novel way of putting its creatures in play. This is the strength, but also the weakness; it cannot win if you throw a wrench in its machinery.
Black has lots of wrenches... Ensnaring bridge, mishras are good blockers, sacrifice effects in droves to get rid of bridge from below and TONS of graveyard hate.
As for loam the important question is: does it help me win? Being cool is regrettably not good enough reason to play a card: (
(remember Hecatomb?)
Hey guys...
It's been a while since I posted... I'm still in the process of playtesting pox here's the list I'm currently running
3 wasteland
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 bojuka bog
1 cabal pit (urborg tomb of yawgmoth/tomb of urami)
1 dakmor salvage
15 swamp (4 mishras factory)
23
4 liliana of the veil
2 tainted aether
1 no mercy
1 night of souls betrayal
2 sensei's divining top
2 phyrexian totem
1 phyrexian furnace
13
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 small pox
3 dark ritual
3 black mail
2 syphon life
24
3 pithing needle (walkers/sfm)
2 leyline of the void (gy/drs decks)
2 extirpate (combo/gy/permission)
2 relic of progenitus (gy)
1 massacre (white aggro)
1 perish (green aggro)
2 oppression (combo / aggro)
2 infest (aggro)
I still don't have mishras factories, apparantly I would really need to get because they would serve as my main beaters/win cons.
Also have you guys tried wretched banquet as removal?
Extravagance is the enemy.
"It doesn't really feel good when it works, it just feels bad when it doesn't" - movie title unknown
I see what you mean. However, it's like the more you need to make it work, the harder it gets. So in order to make the manabase work you initially want to get the lands in your graveyard... Then you play LftL, dredge and repeat the process. Chances are you will dredge something significant away. In my testing I hardly ever dredged, and so I think it should only be used every now and then, not be THE main thing you are doing. Also Crop Rotation, while a good card and able to fix any mana-problem should it occur, isn't that good when you need your green and have so many 'special lands'. Mox Diamond I understand, but Entomb (if solely to put lands in your graveyard) will get you nowhere if you don't get LftL (but I understand that you will use it to get LftL and dredge it out of your graveyard)
I never have problems getting two black in MBP, I did had problems getting it in Bg Loam: so I understand your concerns
I used a minimum of six fetchland in order to fix any mana-problem that would occur. Even then I had the problem of not always get what I wanted (Stifle for instance), but also how would you fetch? took the route of Cropo Rotation, Entomb and LftL. It just did not feel right. And yes, the prominance of Shaman can break Pox, but you have enough ways to get rid of it
It does, and don't forget Price of Progress. It can kill you with all the non-basics we run. As for creature-heavy decks: The Abyss is a strong card, I never played myself. Maybe I should try it. Also, as suggested, you can play Damnation or (in Bg Loam) Pernicious Deed. One final note: Nether Void doesn't save your Lily, for it cannot be countered by spells or abilities.
Ha Ha, no, I have only been using the mono black version, though I have thought about trying a Loam build just to see what all the fuss is about. Drop of Honey does seem like something to do if splashing green.
A well built deck should survive having Liliana destroyed. If not then you are too reliant on one card to win your games.
Same with dredging really; it is not THE CARD that should win your games, but your DECK.
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