All B/R update speculation.

[from Cairo]

I don't care how loose a comparison this was, but this is still fucking stupid. Mental Misstep almost singlehandedly killed Legacy diversity (and Legacy itself!) by reducing the metagame to unprecedented stagnancy and homogeneity. Deathrite Shaman has had the complete opposite effect.

I disagree, Deathrite Shaman has not made the metagame more diverse it has been adopted in or antiquated most every midrange shell.

[monovfox]

Word? I often deal with Deathrite Shamans--plow, bolt, decay, etc.

yes, as do I. I still have trouble with it. I can't deal with their goyfs, jaces, lilianas, stoneforge mystics, etc.

When my opponent does not care about what I do for the first 5 turns of the game, that is bad. I swords my opponent's deathrite? He decays my vial. Swords deathrite? suspend ancestral visions. Deathrite lives? Goyf, thoughtseize or Liliana -2 pass. Seriously. The fuck.

[HPB_Eggo]

DRS, JtMS, Show and Tell, Griselbrand...


All good cards, none of which need to be banned. My real problem with the list is that there's nothing mono-Green, White, or Red, and not one of the cards is oriented towards truly aggressive strategies. If they could bring the other colors and straight aggro up a bit in power I think the format would be a lot healthier overall.

[monovfox]

DRS, JtMS, Show and Tell, Griselbrand...


All good cards, none of which need to be banned. My real problem with the list is that there's nothing mono-Green, White, or Red, and not one of the cards is oriented towards truly aggressive strategies. If they could bring the other colors and straight aggro up a bit in power I think the format would be a lot healthier overall.

wrong. Deathrite needs to go. Like, now.

[Kich867]

yes, as do I. I still have trouble with it. I can't deal with their goyfs, jaces, lilianas, stoneforge mystics, etc.

When my opponent does not care about what I do for the first 5 turns of the game, that is bad. I swords my opponent's deathrite? He decays my vial. Swords deathrite? suspend ancestral visions. Deathrite lives? Goyf, thoughtseize or Liliana -2 pass. Seriously. The fuck.

I have no idea, perhaps you shouldn't play super mediocre decks like Death and Taxes?

[Dice_Box]

wrong. Deathrite needs to go. Like, now.

Write your essay. I mean I know I was talking about Banning SnT before (and I still want that to happen), but I never said anything as abrupt and borderline aggressive as this. Man tone it back and write out all your reasons. The best way to have a debate is to start with points to debate.

Make your case, then open the floor.

[lochlan]

Regardless of whether or not it needs to be banned, it seems low-impact enough at first blush that I doubt Wizards will ever ban it. It obviously has a disgustingly high level of utility, but I don't think it's broken enough as either an enabler or a win condition to get banned.

Having said that, I don't think Deathrite Shaman is particularly good for the format--it just does too much. (Being grave hate, mana acceleration, a win condition, and a blocker is quite a lot.) I think card designs should be narrower.

[Megadeus]

Regardless of whether or not it needs to be banned, it seems low-impact enough at first blush that I doubt Wizards will ever ban it. It obviously has a disgustingly high level of utility, but I don't think it's broken enough as either an enabler or a win condition to get banned.

Having said that, I don't think Deathrite Shaman is particularly good for the format--it just does too much. (Being grave hate, mana acceleration, a win condition, and a blocker is quite a lot.) I think card designs should be narrower.

Dont for get Life Gain ;)

I do see how DRS has warped the format a bit, but I do not think it is necessarily for the worst. As has been pointed out, there are answers. nedleeds pointed out many awesome cards vs Deathrite decks. People just need to be creative and stop just listening to others.

[lochlan]

nedleeds pointed out many awesome cards vs Deathrite decks.

Did he?

Blood Moon does nothing, stone nothing, unless they're too greedy to fetch at least a basic--and it still doesn't stop DRS from generating colored mana under a Moon effect (assuming lands in the yard obv)! Pyroclasm is symmetrical, which can be problematic depending on what deck we're talking about. Grim Lavamancer can be kept off its graveyard by...Deathrite Shaman. Cursed Totem is definitely not a card unless we're playing Lands or something. Ground Seal hasn't been playable in years. Suppression Field slows activated abilities down, but doesn't stop them.

Nedleeds has stated himself, and on multiple occasions, that he doesn't really even play the format. So, no offense to him, but it's not surprising that he listed a bunch of fairly narrow and relatively ineffective answers. I think his Cursed Totem suggestion was closest to the mark. If you want to fight DRS, you have to fight all of its activated abilities simultaneously--so realistically we're talking about Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker. But then you might not have a card to stop the Jace or Liliana the DRS is enabling.

And that right there is the biggest problem that I see: if we're attacking DRS, we're probably not attacking whatever plans DRS helps enable.

Edit: the best way I've found to beat "DRS" itself is Rest in Peace. But then those decks are also running a set of Abrupt Decay, so any permanent based hate (including needle effects) aren't going to hang around for long.

[Shawon]

I've found Relic of Progenitus to be quite handy in dealing with DRS, and it's quite useful beyond that since it can shrink Goyfs and turn itself into a card if your opponent tries to Abrupt Decay it. But I also agree that hating out DRS doesn't really hate out the deck that uses DRS.

I disagree, Deathrite Shaman has not made the metagame more diverse it has been adopted in or antiquated most every midrange shell.

But it made some of the midrange shells that were otherwise suboptimal or uncommon (Junk, Jund, Shardless Agent was in decks before RtR) come into the limelight of the Legacy metagame. Also, with the waning of Miracle decks, we have different types of combo decks top 8-16'ing from Elves to OmniTell to Storm.

[mishima_kazuya]

Woah, I did not mean to start this shitstorm.

I'm not saying DRS is going to be banned this month, but I would not be surprised if they did ban it.

I would imagine that Wizards and the DCI would give the Legacy metagame sometime to adapt first.

Something to point out at the moment for what its worth

a)The Legacy metagame is mostly midrange and combo decks.
b)Actual aggro decks have been on the decline ever since summer/spring 2012. (Zoo, Merfolk, etc)
c)Actual control decks are almost extinct since summer/spring 2012. (Landstill, Stax, etc) Counterbalance can be argued as the last Legacy deck most resembling old school control, but it has adapted a combo finish.
d)Wizards is doing a good job of making creatures relevant in all formats. (Midrange vs combo in Legacy, Midrange vs combo midrange vs combo in Modern, Midrange in Standard)

[KobeBryan]

Woah, I did not mean to start this shitstorm.

I'm not saying DRS is going to be banned this month, but I would not be surprised if they did ban it.

I would imagine that Wizards and the DCI would give the Legacy metagame sometime to adapt first.

Something to point out at the moment for what its worth

a)The Legacy metagame is mostly midrange and combo decks.
b)Actual aggro decks have been on the decline ever since summer/spring 2012. (Zoo, Merfolk, etc)
c)Actual control decks are almost extinct since summer/spring 2012. (Landstill, Stax, etc) Counterbalance can be argued as the last Legacy deck most resembling old school control, but it has adapted a combo finish.
d)Wizards is doing a good job of making creatures relevant in all formats. (Midrange vs combo in Legacy, Midrange vs combo midrange vs combo in Modern, Midrange in Standard)

I really don't like seeing too many midrange decks. The games usually end up with who actually has the better draws.

[Shawon]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ly/feature/255

No changes. Continue your bitching, folks.

[HPB_Eggo]

I really don't like seeing too many midrange decks. The games usually end up with who actually has the better draws.

This is true of every game of Magic ever played, to one degree or another.

That pointless statement aside, shorter games tend to be based more on who draws well and less on who plays better as, generally speaking, more time allows for more possibility of skilled play and to recover from poor early draws. I'd much rather have a format full of decks that slowly win over six to eight turns than one where people either win or completely lock the opponent out in the first two, as that format would revolve much more around skilled play and much less around people getting silly draws and just winning.

[KobeBryan]

This is true of every game of Magic ever played, to one degree or another.

That pointless statement aside, shorter games tend to be based more on who draws well and less on who plays better as, generally speaking, more time allows for more possibility of skilled play and to recover from poor early draws. I'd much rather have a format full of decks that slowly win over six to eight turns than one where people either win or completely lock the opponent out in the first two, as that format would revolve much more around skilled play and much less around people getting silly draws and just winning.

so you never dealt with a "top deck for the win" kinda game huh.

[Wilkin]

Deathrite is an insane card. But honestly, in a format where I've died turn 1 or 2, Deathrite is far from the scariest thing I've faced. I agree the card is really pushing it in terms of power level. A one mana dude that's a 1/2 that accelerates, shocks people, gains life and messes with GY.

Sure, the card is everywhere but so is Brainstorm, Force of Will and Wasteland. And I wouldn't ban any of those cards. I personally wouldn't ban anything right now if I had the choice but if I had to.....Deathrite wouldn't even be a consideration for me. It would be Show and Tell. They won't stop printing crazy stuff like Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Griselbrand etc.

As far as answers for DRS, I would say more one mana removal cards (Disfigure, Dismember, Path to Exile, Bolt etc.) or say Punishing Fire. Cursed Totem is a good card but IMO is only really good against a deck with a ton of dudes that would be affected, like say Elves. The decks that I assume people hate facing that have DRS, are all the mid-range decks from Junk, Deathblade, BUG etc. And those decks don't have many creatures that would be affected by totem.

[sdematt]

If they did ban Deathrite Shaman, it'll not only prove they know not how to make cards nor manage an eternal format, in which case they should let someone else do it.

-Matt

[Basaka]

I've always thought that DRS would have been better if it only had 1 toughness. Anyone else ever think something like that (I mean, if it only had 1 toughness then at least a lackey or random 1/1 tokens can trade with it, right?)

[lordofthepit]

Guys. Can we please ban deathrite shaman? I do have a legitimate argument, but I could literally write a 10 page essay on it. Instead, I want your immediate responses to my statement, and insults about my mother/sexuality.

Deathrite is not nearly good or ubiquitous enough to ban.

[HammafistRoob]

DRS, JtMS, Show and Tell, Griselbrand...


All good cards, none of which need to be banned. My real problem with the list is that there's nothing mono-Green, White, or Red, and not one of the cards is oriented towards truly aggressive strategies. If they could bring the other colors and straight aggro up a bit in power I think the format would be a lot healthier overall.

+100, this is what needs to happen to really diversify legacy. They could also print stuff to try and push the playability of mono colored decks. Why can't they just give us one set of Legacy playables that wouldn't be legal in Standard and Modern? Like a gift back to the players who love their game the most? People say it's because WoTC doesn't make money off Legacy players, but they easily could if they really wanted to.