Something about the 4 Heritage/Nettle, 4 Quirion, 2 Birchlore configuration keeps bugging me. It just feels wrong. I think I'll test 4 Heritage, 4 Nettle, 3 Quirion, 3 Birchlore later this week. Perhaps even 3 Heritage, Quirion, 4 Birchlore and see how it affects starts. Quirion is occasionally awesome but in general just feels too clunky to operate without a Heritage Druid. As far as I'm concerned it's more of a Deathrite booster than anything.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
... and we might agree that Symbiote is the better DRS-machine-Gun-booster.
I hate Ranger outside of casual Priest/Archdruid lists and test without them for the Moment but a Full Set of Birchlores, 4 Cradles and the 4th NO instead, with pretty solid results because Nettle + Birchlore gives more color flex (ignore Wasteland instead of bouncing the forest with quirion) and works excellent for early Glimpses.
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That does seem good. Makes maindeck Ruric a hell of a lot more palatable, too - dude is pretty awesome and 6cc is easily hardcastable but the red mana has been a bitch thus far. With 4 DRS, 4 Birchlore it shouldn't be.
The one concern with cutting Quirions is that occasionally you really, really need to grind games out with fogs and saddling Symbiotes alone with that duty is pretty meh. I've had issues with drawing too many lands, tho, so a Sylvan Safekeeper slotted somewhere in there might well be the correct play. Makes all manner of hatebears even more of a bitch to deal with, too.
Does this seem sane?
//Creatures: 29-31 depending on flex
4 Nettle
4 Heritage
4 Birchlore
4 Emissary
4 Symbiote
4 DRS
1 Llanowar
1 Hoof
1 Ruric
1 Shaman
//Flex package options: 3 slots
2 Safekeeper, 1 Teeg
1 Safekeeper, 1 Llanowar, 1 Archdruid
1 Safekeeper, 1 Llanowar, 1 Teeg
1 Safekeeper, 1 Teeg, 1 Rotation
1 Safekeeper, 2 Rotation
//Spells: 12-14 depending on flex
4 Glimpse
4 NO
4 GSZ
//Land: 17
2 Arbor
3 Cradle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
7 fetches
I donīt think that we should cut all Quirion Rangers for more Bircholore Rangers. Both are good in this deck. Even if you adjust the numbers, i wouldnīt cut none of the two Ranger Cards completely. As i said i use 4 Quirion and 2 Bircholore. Six slots to adjust as you like.
Quirion Ranger should be in the deck, even if you only play one. Combatbounce with Arbor (remember Jitte), Manapush with few ressources, untap Nettle in Grindmatches, untap Creatures for Craterhoof Attack, untap Deathrite (return and play Bayou), Wasteland protection for Duals.
Bircholore Ranger works well with Glimpse and better under heavy disruption compared to heritage. It also delivers any mana colour and can be a morph beater (or NO Target under Plague).
There are pros and cons either way, but kick all Quirions feels totally wrong
TEAM MtG Berlin
@Zombie :
I kinda like that list. I've been thinking more and more about the inclusion of Ruric in the build since a T3 Ruric means the end and/or a fair amount of damage before they get rid of it. Should help the deck stabilize and attain the critical mass of card required to combo off.
Sure, if you got the combo T2(Best case scenario) go for it and see if they have any interactions with you. If not, Ruric will be the key in stabilizing for a T3 or T4 win.
Im toying with an all spell combo list ATM, but I might put that list together and give it a try.
Preliminary sideboard for Quirion-less build:
Board:
1 Prog
4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Sliver
3 Decay
1 K-Grip
2 Ooze
1 ???
Perhaps, with a Safekeeper, Teeg, Rotation flex package in the main:
Board:
1 Prog
4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Sliver
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Bog
1 Rotation
To be honest, I'd just cut teeg all together from the flex package and put him SB.
I'd play as a SB :
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
2 Thorn of Amethys
1 Sliver
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Bog
Since NO is now a 4 of main deck, and I see Ruric as an Alt. Win-Con via beatdown plan Gaddock is a tiny bit counter productive.
In the current Meta, I'd rather make my opponent deal themselves 6/12 damages and open the door to a lethal attack next turn than stop them from FoW or play CMC 4+ spells.
EDIT : Based on your list, this is what I would run
//Creatures: 30
4 Nettle
4 Heritage
4 Birchlore
4 Emissary
4 Symbiote
4 DRS
1 Llanowar
1 Hoof
1 Ruric
1 Shaman
1 Safekeeper
1 Regal Force
//Spells: 13
4 Glimpse
4 NO
4 GSZ
1 Rotation
//Land: 17
2 Arbor
3 Cradle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
7 fetches
//SB : 15
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
2 Thorn of Amethys
1 Sliver
3 Decay
2 Ooze
1 Bog
Teeg is there for combo (there's a lot here), not so much the fair matchups.
Still, against combo, unless they can get rid of it on their first spell (and I doubt they pack hate MD) Ruric is GG since they can't get rid of it. Combo needs a nominal amount of spells (I'd say an average between 4 to 12+) to reach the desired effect.
Even against RiP/Helm combo, we are talking 12 damages + 2 fetches. Put them in range for lethal from Ruric.
Still, the list needs a lot of testing and fine tuning, but I do believe we are heading in the right direction
Sadly gsz for little doesn't hit Ruric and is a common scenario g1 t2
I still dont understand why you would GSZ for 2 on T2 and cut yourself from NO on T3 for Hoof and lethal...
As an early Ruric supporter, i would say, donīt cut all Quirions. If you max out the Natural Order plan, quirion can be a key card, because you only need 1 Quirion, 1 Arbor and 1 Forest/Dual to cast Natural Order.
Against Storm G1, Zenit for Teeg Turn 2 is good enough, if you wait until turn 3 you can be dead. If you are lucky enough, Turn 2 Natural Order into Ruric is a much stronger play.
TEAM MtG Berlin
You have to be pretty lucky, but still more than attainable.
T1 = Land, GSZ = 0, fetch Dryad Arbor, Go.
T2 = Tap forest, Birchlore, Tap Dryad, Nettle Sentinel, Play Cradle, Tap Sentinel+Birchlore for G, Tap Cradle for GGG, NO sac Dryad Arbor, Ruric Tar, Sip on your gin & tonic, Go.
@Kayradis
Why the Regal in your list?
In older list, I was using it as an alternate draw engine if I was stalling.
Its a Glimpe + 4 to 5 spells in 1 card with a good body to swing with, can refuel your combo late game if it gets grindy (happenned to me at GP Quebec City Legacy side event) and optimally, can turn the tide of a game around all together game 2 or 3. I can't visualise a Combo Elves list without Regal Force.
I'm all ears (eyes?) if you can pinpoint me why I shouldn't run it.
Just curious as many people (myself included) have been moving away from regal into 2 Hoof or Hoof-Ruric as NO targets. Though I guess even a raw Regal will be much better soon with the new Legend rule.
Still, I'm trying to understand why you would cut the Regal Force over a second Hoof.
I don't think I've ever NO for a Regal Force, since hard casting it will be most of the time more valuable (draw into crop or other utility pieces).
Like I said before, I see Regal Force as a Reset button for the deck in grindy matches.
In addition, with the new legendary rules, lets say after Regal Force resolves, you draw into...let's say 5 to 8 cards.
Let's say, Cradle, Sentinel, Glimpse, Fetch, 2 x 1-drop-elf-dork and a GSZ for instance. Those are pretty normal draw in my opinion based on the deck list.
At this point, the whole tide of the game just changed and Regal Force got renamed 4GGG You win.
Hardcast Regal Force with drawing 5-8 cards means you can also play 1st/2nd Hoof for one more mana (or even better for only 2GG=NO) and also get the win. Why you will draw a bunch of cards and play a longer combo turn than necessary?
In most cases a resolved Craterhoof (or even Ruric against some decks) also can be renamed to "You win the Game". This is the reason why Regal Force has fallen out of favour for some players. It is still ok, but no more a "must have" for successful builds.
TEAM MtG Berlin
I do agree with you on some points, but you missed the point I was making in regards to the grindy late games. Regal Force is a reset button for those situations.
Regal Force is good in the same instances as Hoof, which provides the dilemma that you never really need RF. Even if you have no other creatures in play, put Hoof down and swing for 6 that turn. I've found the aggressive line is usually better than a slower clock. And if you have a huge summoning sick army, then just get lethal damage from each of the [one, two, three] creature(s) that can swing and end it that turn. Elves snowball to the point that actually happens.
Here's another benefit I've found from two Hoofs. You don't have to setup your first NO anymore. You can be aggressive with it and punch people in the mouth for a healthy, non-lethal chunk and put them on the back foot the remainder of the game. And you still have that reserve Hoof in your deck in case you need another Overrun turn. If you don't, you are now in chip-away mode and the strategy typically gets there. This is a new line in addition to all the options your deck has now. Think about it.
I dropped RF after the SCG open where I literally never needed him.
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