All B/R update speculation.

[Megadeus]

That's a wacky math to call Infernal into Ad Nauseam a 4-mana-combo even with LED. Even if you take it that way, Ad Nauseam strickly Limits your designspace within the deck and has no substitutes like S&T deck's have in either Sneak attack and Dream Halls in combination with multiple targets.

I doubt it's a positive sign for the players if you give them the choice of These 4 combos:

- a 6-mana-2-card painter Stone
- a 3-mana-2-card S&T and perm x
- a 4-mana-2-card Infernal + LED (often Screen yourself of get massive hate)
- a 3-mana-2-card entomb/c.study + exhume/animate (more combo cardtypes (3 instead to 2 in S&T) and Dog to DRS/RIP)

This IS a easy pick.

Also dont forget that with infernal for AN, you also have to really expose yourself by going hellbent.

[Zombie]

Plus you can just let IT resolve, counter the engine. I don't know of a SnT reveal that would counter Griseltard barring Griseltard itself.

[phazonmutant]

Plus you can just let IT resolve, counter the engine. I don't know of a SnT reveal that would counter Griseltard barring Griseltard itself.

Omniscience + Cunning Wish -> Trickbind?


I think S&T is a net negative for the format because it's so frustrating to play against, but if it doesn't get banned it's not like it's breaking the format. As people have pointed out, it's just yet another viable archetype(s) that does its fair share of winning.

Why is it frustrating to play against? Because the difference between a skilled and unskilled pilot can be pretty small (10% maybe?) and it gets to throw its combo out there and sit back on counterspells. The opponent has to act first, giving the pilot more information, making it easier for them.

[Dice_Box]

I agree with your statement totally. It is an unfun deck to play against, mostly because to hate out the deck with any real effect you need to be playing a deck with counters. It is a deck that only really has one solid answer and limits play because of it.

(Before someone points out first turn discard, I wish to point back to fact that the deck runs enough counters to have answers to that, and with SOL lands can win turn two.)

[Megadeus]

I agree with your statement totally. It is an unfun deck to play against, mostly because to hate out the deck with any real effect you need to be playing a deck with counters. It is a deck that only really has one solid answer and limits play because of it.

(Before someone points out first turn discard, I wish to point back to fact that the deck runs enough counters to have answers to that, and with SOL lands can win turn two.)

Hate bears are solid enough sometimes

[Dice_Box]

I agree, Angel of Despair and cards like her can save you.Bbut what are you going to do? Mull to 4 to get the one card you need, be left with no hand and watch as Intuition gets another SNT or win con for the deck or pray you can rely on pure straight luck.

Well it is that or play blue. I like how healthy that last statement makes the format look.

[Norm]

I agree with your statement totally. It is an unfun deck to play against, mostly because to hate out the deck with any real effect you need to be playing a deck with counters. It is a deck that only really has one solid answer and limits play because of it.

(Before someone points out first turn discard, I wish to point back to fact that the deck runs enough counters to have answers to that, and with SOL lands can win turn two.)

As an avid SNT player for the last few years with multiple SCG top 16 finishes I'd like to note that the decks I have the most trouble beating most of the time are not blue.

[humppa]

The best on this thread is the old pool. The fact, that anybody really wanted to ban Standstill, Tarmogoyf, or Goblin Lackey.

[Lemnear]

The best on this thread is the old pool. The fact, that anybody really wanted to ban Standstill, Tarmogoyf, or Goblin Lackey.

There's a ban wagon for every flavor of the month, see Delver, DRS, S&T as well als Abrupt Decay ... and if someone is really bored and has no numbers to backup his claims for the current object of hate, they either draw wacky parallels to the Vintage Restricted List or dig up Brainstorm and try to convince people that it's better than Ancestral Recall.

Repeating pattern for years.

[Dice_Box]

As an avid SNT player for the last few years with multiple SCG top 16 finishes I'd like to note that the decks I have the most trouble beating most of the time are not blue.

May I ask then what does give you a hard time?

[Higgs]

Heavy discard, Liliana, a combination of Teeg, Thalia and KotR plus Karakas.

Counters is easy because they can counter only so many times, that is if we don't already out counter them. It is harder with multiple permanent hate locking you and discard emptying your hand.

[Dzra]

The key to consistently beating combo has always been diversifying your hate and attacking on multiple angles. Whether that means discard and hatebears or discard and countermagic or whatever else doesn't make too much of a difference. Because they pack things like LLoS, Defense Grid, Silence, various bounce, and discard of their own, combo decks will usually be able to fight through any one type of hate. If half your answers are discard and half countermagic, it's going to make boarding into LLoS or Defense Grid awkward for a SNT deck. Add in some hatebears or ORings and they are in trouble. I find Dredge much less fun to play against than Griselbrand. That doesn't mean I think they need to ban Bridge from Below or anything.

[Shawon]

Worldgorger Dragon should be first in line as the next card to unban, because it would be by far the safest and most inconsequential unban. No deck featuring a WGD combo would emerge as a dominant force in Legacy, and it would easily be worse than just playing Reanimator. I don't think anyone seriously wanting to win tournaments is going to want to play a WGD deck just because they can force a draw each game after they win game 1. It's way too easy to hate out and the combo is much weaker without Bazaar of Baghdad in the format. Unbanning WGD isn't going to make any sort of impact on the format or metagame, which is why I believe it would be the ideal candidate for the next unbanning.

Second to WGD would be Memory Jar. It's worse than Ad Nauseam in Storm and worse than Time Spiral in High Tide since it doesn't untap any lands after resolution. There is no Tinker in Legacy to cheat Memory Jar into play, and I think Griselbrand is a better cheat with Show and Tell. The only deck that would considerably profit from the unbanning of Memory Jar would be MUD Metalworker. It's debatable whether MUD would be a little too powerful with Memory Jar, but I think the power boost would be a healthy boost that makes it more competitive and influences other decks to diversify their deck's answers, similar to how decks take Show and Tell into consideration when deciding which reactive cards to run.

TLDR: WGD is completely safe to unban, it wouldn't affect anything. Memory Jar could be too good in MUD, but I think it would just make MUD into another Show & Tell deck, one that is pretty broken but otherwise encourages strong metagaming.

[nedleeds]

I think the order from safest to unban to unsafe is something like

- Black Vise
- WGD
- Earthcraft
- SotF
- Mind Twist
- Memory Jar

I think Jar being a colorless, permanent based, draw 7 is pretty powerful and not just in MUD. In Storm you could even build Show and Tell strategies around it. The only comparables right now are Reforge the Soul and Dimishing Returns.

[Gheizen64]

I think the order from safest to unban to unsafe is something like

- Black Vise
- WGD
- Earthcraft
- SotF
- Mind Twist
- Memory Jar

I think Jar being a colorless, permanent based, draw 7 is pretty powerful and not just in MUD. In Storm you could even build Show and Tell strategies around it. The only comparables right now are Reforge the Soul and Dimishing Returns.

WGD is a logistic nightmare, won't ever be unbanned under current rules.

SotF is an almost autoinclude in most green decks, the opportunity costs for running it are very low, but maybe in a world of abrupt decays, Oozes and DRS it could be unbanned. It would go played widely though. It isn't "safe" by any stretch of the imagination, even if i'd like to have it again.

Twist sucks, a lot. An eventual 2-of in midrangey decks for the grindy matchups? Not exactly what you'd define dangerous to unban.

Jar is good, but being sorcery speed is a pretty big deal, you'd rather run AdN, and avoid giving random 7-of to your opponents. Imho it's really safe.

Recruiter wouldn't even be played by now i think. Food Chain goblin isn't better than normal goblin lists. It's annoying because of logistics, and it won't be unbanned because of that i think.

Desire is probably worse than Spiral. Decent but nowhere broken.

My list:

Super safe:
Vise
Mindtwist

Safe:
Earthcraft
Dragon (safe but logistics, won't unban)
Memory Jar
Recruiter (safe but logistics issues, won't unban)


Moderately Safe:
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Desire
Survival of the Fittest
Tolarian Academy

Try if you want something new in the format:
Windfall
Mental Misstep (well, not really "new")
Library of Alexandria (Aka 3000$ mana bases for control)
Hermit Druid (aka play 4 gut shots)
Balance (aka 2 mana terminus + hymn)
Oath of Druids (aka we already got SnT anyway, this can be Decayed at least and can be a dead card against some decks lol)

Maybe tolarian swapped with Survival. I really can't think of a deck where tolarian would be broken. Tolarian combo without Vaults and Windfalls sucks. Even running 15-16 artifacts (4 LED, 4 Petal, 3 SnT, 4 Chrome mox), it's still unreliable. On the other hand you could play some funny MUDs and Affinity lists.

[kiblast]

TLDR: WGD is completely safe to unban, it wouldn't affect anything. Memory Jar could be too good in MUD, but I think it would just make MUD into another Show & Tell deck, one that is pretty broken but otherwise encourages strong metagaming.

Strong metagaming? If the majority of players were metagaming, we would still have Survival legal. People would start bitching at Jar.
I think Jar is not super-safe to unban because adds too much resiliency to Spiral Tide. The deck is already resilient enough without giving it other draw 7s effects. Not untapping is not that important unless you are really early in your combo process. After the 2nd high tide 5 mana is nothing.
Also consider that Jar is a must counter versus miracle or other slow control decks because if it resolves, your hand sculpted through multiple brainstorms and top activation will be binned... I'm not saying Jar would be bonkers but still its a combo draw 7 enabler which suits perfectly a mono blue deck packed with disruption.

My list:

Vise (super safe)
Mindtwist (super safe)
WGD (super safe)
Desire (this is borderline, more than Jar)
Jar (although I think it would be really good in certain decks, still I'd love to see it legal in the format, if anything broken happens they can ban it again.)
Survival

[walker]

Unban wheel of fortune.

[nedleeds]

People need to realize that it isn't 1 Mind's Desire that's a problem. It's 4. Mind's Desire can cast and trigger the Storm mechanic on ... another Mind's Desire. If Legacy had a restricted list it might be fine; but as a 4 of it's actually stone retarded.

[Shawon]

I know that Memory Jar is pretty powerful, but the decks some of you guys are mentioning that would abuse MUD aren't convincing examples. You could build a Storm deck around Memory Jar, but I don't see why you would prefer drawing 7 cards with Jar over drawing up to 15 cards in a single turn with Ad Nauseam, and I don't think you can feasibly run both Jar and AdN. High Tide already has access to extra draw7s, Diminishing Returns and Time Reversal, so I don't think Memory Jar is the missing link to propel High Tide into degeneracy (that honor would go to Frantic Search).

WGD is a logistic nightmare, won't ever be unbanned under current rules.

I know why WGD is a logistical issue, but I just don't think it would be as problematic as speculated because of the numerous tools in the Legacy card pool that hose the graveyard, especially targeted reanimation effects. Do you think whether a card can be hated out effectively can be accounted for if deciding to unban logistic nightmares like WGD or Recruiter? I recognize Recruiter can be a logistical nightmare due to the player stacking their entire deck, and one can't really single out Recruiter as easily as WGD, hence why I didn't mention it.

[Megadeus]

People need to realize that it isn't 1 Mind's Desire that's a problem. It's 4. Mind's Desire can cast and trigger the Storm mechanic on ... another Mind's Desire. If Legacy had a restricted list it might be fine; but as a 4 of it's actually stone retarded.

This. Storm is at 7... Flip 7, one of those is Minds desire. Cast Stuff. Cast Minds Desire storm is 12. Flip 12. Oops another minds desire. Win the game.

Edit: Similar to a weaker AN, except your deck is restricted less by mana costs and its much more difficult to counter.