I just came back from testing deathrite in a classical esperblade list. It was horrible. It just ate all the removal and the one downside i found to its inclusion was actually too hefty to ignore. Late game i constantly drew into deathrites/discards/spell pierces which didn't do anything to solve the situation i was in. Deathrite is in fact much better in a proactive deck where you overload your opponent with threats. It needs some more testing but my first experience is horrible. The wastelands and tropical island were also problematic.
@Malakai: Wouldn't it be better to just play detention sphere/vindicate main deck? It's a sollution to jitte, jace and other random permanents. Right now i might want a detention sphere maindeck. It's good against omnishow and is an extra blue card against combo decks.
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.Esper stoneblade
I'm probably playing one vindicate again in the main, I think its the best option available if you want more answers to things like jace,jitte,.. Atleast in my list its better then detention sphere since SCM obv.
A red splash has always been good ofc,but u are not playing uwb stoneblade anymore then. I'm still pretty sure the flexibility of discard,.. is more needed then splashing red for REB's.
Perhaps I'm a little too biased to provide an objective point of view about the differences between red and black splash, but I feel the time is right to be able to operate the change. With the rules change incoming, Jace wars will become a constant issue to keep in mind when deckbuilding in regard to the Miracle and the mirror matchup, and now more than ever the utility provided either by Lightning Bolt and (postboard) REB effects will make red very tempting.Originally Posted by rancOr_
Esperblade is notoriously lackluster in dealing with opponent's PWs, as implied in the genes of BUG and UWB color-tryads. Discard spells can't stop jace from being hidden or topdecked; the only answer is Geist of Saint Traft, but that's conditional (and slow), and can be delayed for a turn easily.
Jace decks really need to start fearing..Jace. Red Jace decks will clearly have an edge in being able to break the PW war with 1 mana, while the colors mentioned above will have to struggle with some form of flash creatures/1-ofs-Vindicate or Pulse/overextending board to get in.
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Really? i've never had a problem with it. Lingering souls/end of turn clique/Vindicate/Detention sphere have always taken care of that.Esperblade is notoriously lackluster in dealing with opponent's PWs,
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.
Lingering Souls and Clique need not to be stopped by creature removal or blocked. A bit pretentious, uh?
Even if 3 tokens were to attack Jace, you can Stp one, let Jace go down to 1, untap, make a Jace-Brainstorm. Every Brainstorm activation Jace makes pushes the player using it to victory in a drastic way, borderline unfair. In a Jace-deck mirror, the one that Brainstorm at least twice has won with maybe 95% of certainty. Every experienced player won't deny this.
Detention Sphere sucks as it can be popped at any time of the game to set you back all of a sudden in a bad situation.
Vindicate costs 3, sorcery speed.
There's no better option to Pyroblast to fight Jace in Legacy. It stops him hard, on the spot, or maybe with one turn delay. Past that, things are inevitable.
And if you were somehow to struggle back into the game, it would be with all likeliness because Pyroblast costs 1 and thus can't be Pierced (or counterspelled without some form of counterspell on your own) easily- or, simply, to Snapcast it back just costs 3.
I'm bringing this crusade on since 4 months, and it's amazing how people can't just recognize that.
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I recognise the power of pyroblast. The thing is just that other decks don't fight jace that much better than we do. I genuinly never had problems with planeswalkers before. Sure REB would help, but from there switching to red simply for that is a long stretch and i personally don't feel the need for it. I'm not trying to be pretentious, that's just my experience with it.
The new rule will make it easier to beat jace, not harder. Since now you don't just have to throw away your jace while they got all the advantage. Now you get to play your own and race back into the game.
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.
What is wrong with the generic options that U and W provide?
Preemptively you have Spell Pierce, FoW, Counterspell
and proactively you could just play Clique, Elspeth, and Fact or Fiction (as the 5th Jace).
But I agree that Lingering Souls and most other creatures (e.g. SCM into BS) is only half an answer against Jace, but they help nevertheless.
Baneslayer Angel
a bullet renders all sizes equal
I have been playing strix for over a month and they rule. I play 3. I went to a *more* traditional build of Esper Blade recently, here it is for reference (No sideboard, reconstructing it currently).
EsperBlade v2.0
Cards: 61 cards
Land: 22
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Mystic Gate
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Creatures: 14
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
Non-Creature Spells: 25
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
2 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
1 Lingering Souls
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
That's what I'm playing these days.
-ABC
here's my list ... sort of a cross between Tom Martel's list and the newer deathblade lists - it plays deathrite but instead of geist or bob it plays lingering souls like martel did. No discard, just counterspells ... I know everyone plays it but I've never liked targeted discard in these legacy lists except as a sideboard card. It seems anti-synergistic with the counterspells and just generally inconsistent. But then again, it is more synergistic with sorcery-speed 3-drops, so who knows. Spell pierce has been a nice replacement for me though in most matches at least. My manabase is also more like Martel's list - only 22 lands, with the sacrifice of playing no tarpits and only two wasteland. Is tarpit actually good? It seems slow, vulnerable and expensive to activate for legacy, but then again that's coming from someone who hasn't tested it yet.
4 deathrite shaman
4 stoneforge mystic
2 vendilion clique
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
1 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 jace, the mindsculptor
4 lingering souls
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
2 wasteland
1 karakas
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 marsh flats
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 tropical island
1 island
1 plains
How's your experience with the deck? i've tried something along those lines and it has been pretty bad because deathrite is a lightningrod and got kiled constantly. Additionally lategame i drew into discard spells, spell pierces and deathrites which was pretty problematic.
have you had similar problems?
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.
The thing about deathrite getting killed is that it doesn't really matter. In fact, its often a good thing, because it eats the removal that would otherwise kill your stoneforge. But the main thing is, its not a loss of tempo. When a creature gets killed that's almost always the most important thing, in my experience. You play a three-drop, they bolt it - that sucks. But if you play a deathrite and they bolt it you each played a one-mana spell and now maybe you resolve something more important. If they happen to kill it with a pulse or an abrupt decay, then you just gained tempo, which is even better. Also, deathrite is important as an answer to other deathrites since you can always exile what they target in response, its good hate against reanimator (which has no obvious way to kill it maindeck), and it makes you mana base more consistent - no one really wants to wasteland your first land when you played a deathrite with it, beacuse now they've lost tempo, whereas before they would have likely gotten an advantage.
As far as spell pierce goes, ya drawing it late game can be bad, but if its before the 4th or 5th turn its still often useful against Jace, or other similarly expensive cards. Its basically just necessary to have some disruption and as far as counterspells goes spell pierce is one of the best. Its also nice against things like stifle, protecting your fetch lands early game against RUG delver, etc. Finally, you can pitch spell pierce to FOW or brainstorm it away sometimes. As far drawing deathrite lategame, its really not that bad of a draw. its definitely the best mana dork ever printed as far as top-decking it goes - it will stabilize your life-total, provide an unblockable source of damage, generate mana, etc. THe main thing about these cheaper spells taht are worse topdecks than other cards though, is that you play a LOT of grindy card advantage generating cards, and you need some cheaper ones to balance them out. You need tempo generating cards and utility cards to get you to the point in the game when you can resolve a Jace, a batterskull, etc. I think esperblade deck can provide a nice balance of these two elements that every deck needs. I haven't tested it enough to know if this is the absolutely correct way to build it but it seems potentially good? In some ways its more like bant stoneblade, except that deathrite is better than hierarch and instead of knight of the reliquary you play lingering souls.
I've been testing a similar list to this throughout the weekend because I've been going back and forth if I should go straight esper or splash deathrites and testing was just horrible. I agree that Deathrites are lightning rods that are just killed on the spot. I've tried splashing it in a stock esper list or the ones from SCG with more discard and less counters, and it still didn't pan out. The deathrites are either killed instantly or drawn at the worst possible times.
I also hated the way that you had to give-up your 1-off outs (i.e. counterspell, vindicate, clique, etc.) to accomodate it, it felt like the you had less outs/live draws, more dead cards, and less actual spells so the snapcasters felt worse. The deck also felt clunkier and less streamlined; it felt purely like goodstuff.dec, all power level and very little synergy. Adding deathrite doesn't seem to be worth it, although it sometimes was good to accelerate your plays a turn earlier, the deck isn't really built for deathrites that essentially force you to jam and overload the board with threats.
I've tested 3 lingering souls and 3 GoST interchangeably maindeck and it still didn't feel fluid enough. I feel deathrites belong in a different esper shell with more creatures like bob, geist and/or goyf that are immediate threats that you could accelerate into in the early game to overwhelm your opponent. Deathrites in esper stoneblade force you to play a different type of "game" than classic esper stoneblade, more importantly other decks like Shardless BUG or Team America are better at playing that game which puts you at a disadvantage. It forces you to play cards like Bob and Deathrite which I personally dislike because they only gain advantage the next turn which would probably mean that you need to expend resources to protect them. Apart from bob, this deck has no real way to recoup its resources which again puts you in a bigger disadvantage.
I'll probably be brewing for testing purposes but for now I'll probably just stick with classic esper stoneblade.
Why so serious?
I have come to a shockingly similar experience with my own brews. I have been testing something similar (almost exactly what AEnesidem talked about, but I played strix instead of lingering souls), and it was exactly as you described. Clunky and sometimes you play and find out that you don't have one of your one-ofs because you are playing deathrites instead, so you look and try to find your options and find out you have none. However, you had those moments where the deck was literally going nuts with the acceleration, but not often enough to make me like it. i felt like I was winning some game only because I was playing really good cards, but that once they were dealt with, I was left with nothing working well together. in other words, if you will allow me the football reference, I felt too much like Real Madrid and not enough like Dortmund.
So yeah, I am also back to old esper, as I dislike the deathbalde lists anyways.
interesting, deathrite seems smooth enough to me but i can see where you're coming from. Did any of you ever play Bant Stoneblade? It was sort of like an esperblade list with deathrite (an esper list without discard, but with spell pierces and FOW instead), and it always seemed fairly powerful and consistent, which is why I've been interested to try something like this out. Oh, and what are your classic esper lists, like Martel's, with lingering souls and stuff?
Last edited by rchinnock; 07-14-2013 at 10:40 PM.
why wouldn't esper have spell pierce and FOW
usually its like, 3 FOW, 1-2 spell pierce, and 3-4 discard spells in Esper. I've been playing it 4 FOW, 3 spell pierce, and 1 counterspell, and no discard.
yup i've played bant for some time. You are probably talking about bant blade. The problem with that deck and why i switched was because it was an inferior esperblade. You have to work really hard to get the upperhand just to discover that you lack the powerful cards because you put your eggs in too many baskets. The deck also lacks card advantage and you often end up with too few answers/threats.
hierarch had the same problem as DRS btw. Sometimes you'd draw it lategame. When you are winning or have a good board position that extra DRS or hierarch is good. When you are behind though, hierarch or DRS don't solve any problems. DRS can at least gain some life but that's it. And there lies my biggest problem with this card in the classic esperblade shell. In a deathblade shell you have the necessary presure to make DRS' damage relevant. In esperblade you play DRS more as a ramp spell than anything else. That on itself is good but it does't answer anything. It doesn't get you back into the game when you are behind. Late game the DRS/discard/pierces pile up in your hand while you need answers and powerful bombs with immediate impact.
What i consider the 'classical' list is stil Vidianto's list. My list is a 22 land, 2 ponder, 2 clique, 4 snapcaster list with no one of's. I've been very happy with it. It's streamlined, filters card quality well and has a little better combo matchup due to the extra clique and the better blue card count for fow. I was sceptical about the 22 lands which i think are too few but till now it has been holding up. The ponders and brainstorms ensure you always have a land when needed.
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.
I'm playing the red splash. Mainly due to meta changes, more removal is better now than ever. With mid range decks every where like Bug,Deathblade, Jund etc. 4 Stp, 4 Bolt, 3 Grim, 4 Snapcaster might look like overkill but in this meta, it's justified. Having an answer to Shaman, Bob and Sfm is key. Grim is a house against all these midrange decks. I've found that it's a great removal magnet in a deck like this. Like mom, if unanswered, it just takes over the game for 1 mana. Unlike mom, it can take over games alone whereas mom needs an accompanying threat. Like deathrite, it fits the deck's curve well, giving us a cheap 1 drop must answer. This lets us be more proactive rather than reactive.
The red splash is weaker against combo preboard, but having Blasts and Blood Moon postboard makes up for it. If your meta is aggro/midrange heavy, the red splash maybe better. The black splash is better against combo and control. I like removal over discard/ lingering souls mainly due to tempo. I've found that the black splash is to high cc heavy and have a clog at the 3. Clique, lingering souls, vindicate, detention sphere and snapcaster are essentially 3cc cards. I like that red lowers the deck's general curve. In general the red lists feel "lighter" on their feet. Getting the early game down and setting up an early stranglehold with Sfm/ equipment or Jace has won me more games against slower midrange decks that are floundering around playing catch up.
Aenesidem - first of all, deathblade started out with Bob rather than Geist of Saint Traft, giving them a clock about as fast as ours, and deathrite was still good for them - so its not about the clock. Secondly, deathrite is in fact an answer to many things - unlike Hierarch: reanimator, goyf, knight of the reliquary, other deathrites, snapcaster mage, etc. - and moreover it is a clock on its own that can't be blocked, also unlike hierarch. Drawing deathrite lategame is far from inherently bad, even if it is not always ideal. Also, putting deathrite in esperblade doesn't necessairly leave you with less card advantage - stoneforge is itself card advantage, as is jace. On the contrary, deathrite is often itself a sort of card advantage, nullifying their threats (snaps, goyfs, etc.) while at the same time being a source of damage, lifegain, and mana acceleration. Deathrite is a lot more than a ramp spell - that's why its so much better than hierarch. Plus, again, I'm not running discard, just FOW and spell pierce, so there aren't that many dead cards to pile up. Spell pierce isn't always great lategame but oh well, every stoneblade list has to run some cheap disruption, including yours or anyone elses - you can still pitch them to FOW and brainstorm if they are useless. Bottom line though - deathrite doesn't necesarily make your deck less consistent as it actually answers a number of threats that you may have a hard time dealing with otherwise, such as reanimator, dredge, opposing deathrites, etc., and its not like the deck really lacks card advantage or grind - you still have like 12 cards that consistently provide card advantage (stoneforge, equipment, jace, lingering souls). I'm not saying that playing deathrite is necessarily the way to go, but it definitely doesn't seem like it should make the deck inherently - in my opinion, its probably more of a meta call than anything else.
Just to be clear, here is my list:
4 deathrite shaman
4 stoneforge mystic
2 vendilion clique
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
1 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
1 vindicate
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 lingering souls
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
4 jace, the mindsculptor
22 lands (2 wastelands, 1 karakas)
Basically what I'm sacrificing is snapcaster - which I'm not altogether happy about. If I do go back to a more traditional list I will likely keep this almost exactly how it is and just replace deathrite with snapcaster. Again - I'm not saying I've necessarily built the deck the way it has to be built, but I think it has some advantages, depending on the meta.
I think you misunderstood me on some points. My critique on CA and lack of continuous grinding power was directed at Bant blade, not at your list. I was also just illustrating my problem with deathrite in this shell and why I personally didn't like it.
Sure every card can be an answer to something. That's not the point. The point is that deathrite isn't an immediate answer that gets you back from being behind. Deathblade doesn't need that, deathblade just needs to overwhelm the opponent with strong threats. The problem is that if you put deathrite in a shell that doesn't provide the additional pressure, deathrite becomes a glorified manadork. When i'm behind i find myself drawing deathrites and discard spells. These don't block and they don't dig for answers.
As a control deck you find yourself behind your opponent more often than with any other deck because you play reactively, you are better off with strong answer cards or big bombs who flip the game in your favor. Your plan with esperblade is to take over the board and lock your opponent out of the game. Deathrite doesn't contribute to that apart from potentially accelerating the process by a turn. The problem is that the drawbacks on other area's are too big.
Deathrite's damage is also of minimal importance in esperblade. You don't have any other pressure. And more often than not it's a pain in the ass because you have to fetch black while you don't need it for anything else than deathrite. I much more prefer to have discard spells, extra bombs or strong one of answers than these deathrites in this esperblade build. It's not that the card isn't good. But it doesn't do enough for the deck. It feels forced in there just because it's good while it's an inferior card choice compared to other options.
Now to come back on the lightningrod syndrome. Deathrite shaman and bob in deathblade are pretty good. They get hit by removal almost instantly but you have so many must answer threats that at least one will get through and pull you in front. Esperblade doesn't have that. We have only one target that is worthwile and that is stoneforge mystic. Deathrites will be immediately grilled or sent plowing. And sure you can say "the plow that hit deathrite won't hit stoneforge" but in the meanwhile you lost a card and you have a card in your deck that won't do anything good 90% of the time because it won't stick. Same problem i found with Bob in the esperblade lists. You don't have many targets for removal so your Bob's will almost always die. In the end you are better off playig a card the opponent can't answer that easily and will actually further your gameplan than a good card that will work once every 5 games but is just a lightningrod the other 4.
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.
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