1) Huh? Stifle counters activated abilities too bro, how else would it hit fetchies? It hits every hate except for Cage, Leyline, and Surgical. Also it only counters half of RiP. In theory, it seems like stopping the first hate piece should give you enough time to reach critical mass.Originally Posted by Hollywood
I just think it deserves another look is all. Looking forward to your new tech, as always.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
I think you misunderstood Hollywood here. He didn't say that Stifle doesn't hit activated abilities, I think he means that you shouldn't care about many triggered abilities (except maybe one half of RiP), so Needle (which can't deal with triggered abilities) has the same function, while staying on board and beeing proactive (which is almost always better in Dredge). Not to mention that Stifle doesn't play well with LED.
I have been playing 2 firestorms main deck for the last few months and have absolutely loved it. there have been a number of games I have had Turn 1 - Gemstone mine, go. he plays a DRS, I EOT Firestorm to kill his DRS and start dredging Turn 2. Loving it.
Undiscovered Paradise is a HUGE mistake in Dredge, turn 3 Cephalid Coliseum activations vs 3 points of damage is not an acceptable alternative.
Firestorm is legit, I usually SB Firestorm but considering it destroys fair decks and it bypasses counter spells I don't really see a reason not to play it MD, especially if you need the SB space, with the exception that I don't think it's nearly as good in LED Dredge's MD as it is in Mana Dredge's MD because of your 8 vs 11 gold lands pre-board.
@Hollywood; No, I'm pretty sure Dread Returns in the MD are always bad in LED Dredge or Mana Dredge. You do not need more than 3 Ichorid in order to win game one, and unless you're cutting a Cabal Therapy game one and replacing it with a Dread Return since they have roughly equivalent functions all you're doing is cutting a Breakthrough, a Golgari Thug, a Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe or a Land from the deck for a "win more" card. It isn't even a "win now" card without a second Dread Return and dedicated target, that's 5% more of your entire deck that's completely dead in hand for questionable MD utility.
How did your new list end up treating you? (:
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
I'll be playing it this coming weekend.
I disagree.
In my experience, Dread Return as a one-of boasts a marginally negligible drawback in first games and serves as a perfectly reasonable win condition in the event your Ichorids are exiled. You can't always solely rely on them to win games, which is where Narcomoeba in conjunction with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below becomes your secondary line of play. What you're doing is generating advantage by creating tokens, which is facilitated faster with a triple-sacrifice outlet built into one card - in addition to giving you another monster.
Utility aside, playing one in the main is entirely acceptable. As for being a "win more" card: I just disagree with that term all together. You're going to at times have lots of dead cards in your hand over the course of a game with Dredge (i.e. Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below) - which all sooner or later find their way into your graveyard. Dredge - especially in the first game - can't always rely on Ichorids to win games. Dread Return will generate a huge board advantage with multiple Bridges, in addition to bringing back a potentially game-ending creature.
Seriously, I've seen lines of play where you only hit a single Narcomoeba with three Bridges, flashback a Therapy knocking out some removal like a Swords or something to that effect and follow it up with a Dread Return. The deck deploys a strategy of mowing through itself like a buzz-saw, so I highly doubt you can justify playing a single a card as effective in this archetype like Dread Return as being "win more" when it obviously is one of the most powerful spells in the entire deck - main or side - at a reasonable quantity.
Also, how do you figure you need a second Dread Return and a dedicated target to win you the game? You just run out a single Flame-kin Zealot and that will generally do it in one shot.
I want to share my list with you guys. I have 2 big tournaments in my city coming up and i want to be prepared as much as i can, so i want to submit the deck to critiques, opinions, etc .
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Breaktrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Firestorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
SIDEBOARD
4 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dread Return
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Nether Shadow
1 Dread Return isn't going to be terrible, but it isn't going to be great either. I'm of the opinion that Dredge should concentrate on discarding, drawing and dredging in that order, the cards that function only after being discarded or dredged are of the least priority, and they should be minimized as much as possible. Obviously you don't win the game with 3 Ichorid but with Bridge from Below, my point was 3 Ichorid is more than enough to provide a reliable, redundant and recurrable activation of Bride from Below and that Dread Return was unnecessary. You can't just add 1 Flame Kin Zealot and call it a day, you have to be able to reliably have a Dread Return and dedicated target in place in order to make the investment in deck space worth while and even then it's not clear whether or not winning now guarantees a higher win % than winning inevitably when the cards you're cutting for Dread Return and friends are lands, outlets, draw etc.
Dredge is a strange deck because people don't actually understand what cards and card ratios matter, they just get all Timmy when they can recur their Griselbrand into Flame Kin Zealot and ultra combo where they've already won and never think about whether or not it was over kill compared to mindlessly mulliganing a "no lander" after they've fluffed ~10-15% of their deck on the flashy stuff.
The 11th land or the 12th Dredger are just so much more important for winning games than the 1xDread Return.
Playing the new list tomorrow barring any setbacks.
I think you'll all like it.
I haven't followed your lists in many months, but are you still keen on manaless or have you moved on?
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
This variation of Dredge does in fact have mana sources.
Looking forward to report and decklist.
I'm agreed with Hollywood here. I mainly use it as a utility slot. It basically gives the deck another angle of attack and I believe that to be important. As stated already it works as the best sec outlet which allows you to generate a abundant amount of tokens from a single source. There have also been corner cases where my Cabal Therapies have been removed and had no other way to generate tokens outside of letting my ichorids die which may be a lot slower and finite as well. With DR in your 75 you still have the option to reach critical mass and put the game out of reach for your opp in a single turn. Lastly DR'ing a Troll (assuming this is your only target) is not too shabby either as there are still decks that cannot deal with it like Jund, RUG, among others; remember he still has the ability to regenerate as well which maybe relevant in some cases.
I play traditional quadlazer outside of cutting a single breakthrough for the Dread Return. While Breakthrough is the most powerful draw spell we have its also the one that leaves us most vulnerable leaving us pretty much all in.
I wish you would share what you are doing with your list for tomorrow.
Imperial Painter
Maverick/Geddon
ANT
Getting Ichorid or Cabal Therapy RFGed is not a consideration game 1, with the exception of Deathrite Shaman who only removes 1 card at a time, I think everbody has agreed a post-board Dread Return package is fine ever since Surgical Extraction was printed. I mean, there are corner cases for every card where it could be good, my point is that it's just unnecessary and contributes to mulligans more than it does anything useful game 1.I'm agreed with Hollywood here. I mainly use it as a utility slot. It basically gives the deck another angle of attack and I believe that to be important. As stated already it works as the best sec outlet which allows you to generate a abundant amount of tokens from a single source. There have also been corner cases where my Cabal Therapies have been removed and had no other way to generate tokens outside of letting my ichorids die which may be a lot slower and finite as well. With DR in your 75 you still have the option to reach critical mass and put the game out of reach for your opp in a single turn. Lastly DR'ing a Troll (assuming this is your only target) is not too shabby either as there are still decks that cannot deal with it like Jund, RUG, among others; remember he still has the ability to regenerate as well which maybe relevant in some cases.
I play traditional quadlazer outside of cutting a single breakthrough for the Dread Return. While Breakthrough is the most powerful draw spell we have its also the one that leaves us most vulnerable leaving us pretty much all in.
its really late and I just got back from the star city open in sommerset, safe to say it was huge there was ike 500 ppl there and ten rounds of legacy. Went 7-3 with dredge and am rlly proud of the finish as it was the largest event i've competed in and played generally well all day.
My list
dredgers (11)
3 thug
4 troll
4 stinkweed
Creatures (13)
4 narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
1 Flayer
Sorcery (16)
3 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal therapy
Enchantment/Artifact (8)
4 LED
4 Bridge from Below
Land (13)
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Colisseum
4 Gemstone
1 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard
4 nether shadow
3 natures claim
2 Firestorm
3 pithing needle
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ancient grudge
I've posted my list on here before, its changed a bit now as i now i run two dread returns and flayer with 4 therapies main board where as griselbrand has been taken out completely. It's too late to do a full report but tommorow when i come back from work i'll give as many details as i remember about the games. On the day my match ups went
Jund: 2-1
Shardless BUG: 2-1
Reanimator: 2-0
RIP Miracles: 0-2 :(
Spanish Inquisition: 0-2 (0.0 this deck is sweet btw haha, just stupid turn one combo kill galore)
Jund: 2-1
Deathblade: 2-1
Deathblade: 1-2
Reanimator: 2-1
Goblins: 2-1
overall it was a really solid day of dredging, got 55th in final standings, beating reanimator twice was pretty fucking sweet too, i'll report the details tommorow
Congratulations dude ! Can you share your experiences with Pithing Needle in the SB ?
I'm grabbing the deck this Thursday (thanks to mini1337!) in order to get some diversity and play with something different than Elves! or MonoU Omni-Tell (the 2 main decks we have sleeved at all time in my cardpool).
Im looking to understand what's the mulligan strategy with dredge. What's keepable and what's something I should ship back hoping to get a better 5/6.
I think the quote from Parcher in the primer says it best (emphasis mine):
"The most difficult obstacle to overcome when learning to play this deck is the situations and frequency with which you must mulligan. Not only are there specific needs for your opening hand, but they may change depending on your opponent, what game it is, and who is on the play. As a very general rule, there are four things you are looking for in your opening hand; Mana, Discard, Dredger, and Draw. Some cards count as both, but only in conjunction with others. I've found that in most cases if you don't have at least three of these four requirements that you must mulligan. If you have multiple draw spells, or are playing what you know is a good match/slow deck, this can vary a little. Some combinations such as LED+Coliseum, or LED+DA allow you to break this since Lion's Eye Diamond acts as Mana and Discard, but this is an exception. I can't stress enough how important it is to force yourself to mulligan hands without these needs, and to then learn when you can risk breaking that rule."
Don't be afraid to go down to four or even three cards. I've seen dredge mull to three on the play getting LED, Faithless Looting and Golgari Grave-Troll (and then proceeding to win from there).
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