Yeah, Jace is only good in the MU's about board control when you've stabilized the board and want to start getting ahead. If you play him without doing that he's often just a 4 mana Brainstorm, which is not terrible but still kind of bad.
Well ofcourse, against decks like Goblin's Jace isn't the your best draw, but it can still be very powerful. Goblins doesn't always gum up the board as much. I feel that you want Jace against most matchup's though, and that he's very good there. It's just some matchup's where he's pretty poor. Goblins is certainly 1. I guess it's preference and meta if you wanna play 2 or 3, but I certainly wouldn't cut him entirely. The alternate wincon he provides is so valuable.
Yeah, I believe Jace is at least a MD 2-of in any Shardless BUG build. I think if you cut him completely, you really have to wonder why are we playing blue instead of red? He's definitely one of the reasons to play blue in the GBx Shell.Originally Posted by Linqed
Agent ---> Visions is why I am playing blue
Question: Force of Will MD yes or no?!?!?!?
The last 6-7 month I allways played Forces Main. Switched between 3-4 copies. Now we all know that the European and the American Meta is sometimes different. The americans tend to play the version without Forces main atm. I allways had the opinion that Forces is a must play; early rounds, cards you definately want to counter, card disadvantage is easy to compensate with this deck, you want at least Forces against Combo for the first game, and so on.
Then a few days ago I thought, ok give it a try. I only switched a few cards from the sideboard with the Forces (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Strix and Jitte). I tested a few games (maybe 40-50 games) against Deathblade and Jund. I really have to say that the deck now is even more consistend and has even more card advantage then before. Before I lost more often against these Confi style decks. The long term power of the deck has definately risen now, the drawback is obviously that game 1 aginst Combo is even more worse then before.
There is not a lot of combo around here (in a 6 round tournament I maybe play 1-2 times max against combo). So is it worth the change or what do you guys thinck? Is Force still a must play? I mean the combo matchup preboard was allways hard (I even played a version with 4 Force, 2 Thoughtseize, 4-5 Hymn-Liliana split before and this wasn't enough before boarding).
Any experience with the Force-less version??
I've been using FOW-version ever since, Some problems i encountered where i can't just pitch any blue cards because most of them are value cards. Pitching them to FOW will only put me in a disadvantageous position. Though there's one time when my opponent went all-in casting Ad Nauseaum... golden moment where FOW really shines.
Well i'm going to try the FOWless version this week. :D
In my opinion, if you're not running Force of Will (and you're clearly not running other counterspells because they are terrible cards to cascade into), then you need to ask yourself why you're playing BUG instead of Jund or Junk.
Main reason why I play BUG over Jund/Junk.
- Jace
- If not main then at least Force in the SB
- Blue in gerneral
- Brainstorm
- Jace
- Personal preferences. I like the BUG colours.
- Ancestral Vision
- Jace
And now back to my question. Is Force main necessary??
I don't like BUG lists without Force. It depends on the current Meta and in my Meta (Austria) there are a lot of combo decks. So i would never play without at least 3 Forces main.
Personally, I don't play it main. It's a toss up, though. If I expect more combo, I switch the 2 maindeck Hymn to Tourach for 2 FoW's and keep the other 2 FoW sideboard plus the 2 Hymns.Main reason why I play BUG over Jund/Junk.
- Jace
- If not main then at least Force in the SB
- Blue in gerneral
- Brainstorm
- Jace
- Personal preferences. I like the BUG colours.
- Ancestral Vision
- Jace
And now back to my question. Is Force main necessary??
Agreed. I actually switched to 4 FoW MD to improve my combo match up. I feel pretty comfortable with my fair deck match ups. Another point to playing force in Shardless BUG is the that we can afford to put ourselves in a card disadvantage situation and because of Visions we are not punished as harshly compared to Deathblade, Esper or Miracles. I think that in itself is worth the FoW. Also more FoW vs let's say Hymn means higher probability into blind Agent into visions.
You play very few blue cards for Force though. 4 maindeck seems like a clear mistake. I would say 3 is the max.
My thing with FoW in the main is, I'd rather have it MD and have option to side it out, versus being weaker game 1 to a deck that we need to run FoW against; and then having to side it in and already being a game down.
I also agree that the advantage with blue is the FoW. While I think the FoWless version is fine, I just think going into game 1 is stronger, regardless of the matchup, with FoW.
Lejay thanks for all of your help in this thread.
I only have 1 question and its about having 61 cards in the deck. Any particular reason?
You guys just watched Gerry Thompson crush Chris VanMeter at the Invitational just now? He went back to the CawBlade mirror principle, going for all out boardpresence, not cardadvantage per se. He sided out his Hymn's/Thoughtseizes. VanMeter Hymned Gerry twice and he still got crushed because he ended up with some awkward useless discard in hand. I really like the approach.
Why would you keep them in? Deathblade has an equally good lategame as we do, maybe even better, so you should try to be te agressor in that match and Shardless is very capable of doing this.
If i remember correctly he made some plays in the feature match yesterday that i'd have done different and which might have won, but i will review the footage before commenting further on this.
I was pointing out a clear example, but whatever dude. Worst and most pretentious comment ever. Also, lol @ the last part. Everything is pretty easy standing on the side, but you're not there so don't go saying you would've won this and that. It's pretty easy to play around every card in your opponents hand when you can actually see it on camera.
No need to get condescending. If i missed you point i apologize as english is not my native language and i might have misunderstood what you wanted to point out.
[...]
I did not even say you were wrong with what you said, i just wondered if anybody actually keeps discard against Deathblade, while you did not actually say anything relevant regarding the tpic besides that you like it.
Edit: Forget what i said about the plays, i missed a point during the match and succesfully look like an idiot now ;) Earned it. Apologies especially to GerryT, rooting for you.
Linqed, nothing personal, i don't even know you, i probably just get mad at the commentators at the Invitational.
Edit 2:
4 Shardless among the Legacy part of the Top8 competitors is pretty amazing. Unluckily we will see a standart Top8 :(
@ No Force discussion.
Seems that everyone is playing 3-4 Forces Main at the invitational :).
The most interesting list I've seen is Andrew Tenjum, which is running 2 FoW in the main, and 2 copies of Massacre in the side...a card I've been favoring a lot for the last 2 months or so.
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