Why doesn't counterbalance see play in Vintage?

[DragoFireheart]

Dropping the CB on first turn and locking out 90% of the decks spells (a quick glance at the CMC of Vintage spells) seems pretty good to me. However, I never see any lists with it. Why?

[Esper3k]

MUD and Dredge would like to have word with you...

Also, you'd only ever get a T1 CB if you opened with a Sapphire or Lotus. Using a Lotus just for a CB seems bad.

[DragoFireheart]

MUD and Dredge would like to have word with you...

I doubt dredge is the reason.

Is it really because of how common MUD is?

[Esper3k]

I doubt dredge is the reason.

Is it really because of how common MUD is?

When Dredge and MUD (two pillars of the format) largely ignore Counterbalance, I would say that makes it pretty unplayable in Vintage.

[DragoFireheart]

When Dredge and MUD (two pillars of the format) largely ignore Counterbalance, I would say that makes it pretty unplayable in Vintage.

Well, I guess that's the end of this topic.

[apple713]

Dropping the CB on first turn and locking out 90% of the decks spells (a quick glance at the CMC of Vintage spells) seems pretty good to me. However, I never see any lists with it. Why?

your statement sounds like you have not played vintage before. Have you?

the spells you need to counter in dredge are dread return

the spells you need to counter in mud/stax is 3+ cmc

the deck you would play in vintage with CB would not have many cards that are 3 and 4 CMC to flip for it.

[Higgs]

Seems like you may wanna have a look at this nice little card called Chalice of the Void. People play it to lock people out on turn 1.

[Koby]

Dropping the CB on first turn and locking out 90% of the decks spells (a quick glance at the CMC of Vintage spells) seems pretty good to me. However, I never see any lists with it. Why?

Because barring Mox Sapphire or Black Lotus, you can't get Counterbalance out early enough. Considering the rest of the format also runs acceleration, you're going to need to first deal with Haymaker on turn 1, then use your potential next turn to deal with whatever Haymaker on turn 2 and still try to deploy Counterbalance with some filtering. Mana Drain into bomb is just that much better. You're also super heavy invested into Jace or Top to be able to spin it properly if you're going for Counterbalance.

That and Vintage is much more bomb-heavy than Legacy, which is all about mana efficiency. The Vintage power curve effectively skip 1cc and go to 2,3,4cc. Ancestral Recall and Sol Ring are probably the two that are exceptions.

[DragoFireheart]

your statement sounds like you have not played vintage before. Have you?

No.

I figured that it's worthless against MUD, but might be worthwhile against other non-MUD decks.

[kingtk3]

Because barring Mox Sapphire or Black Lotus, you can't get Counterbalance out early enough. Considering the rest of the format also runs acceleration, you're going to need to first deal with Haymaker on turn 1, then use your potential next turn to deal with whatever Haymaker on turn 2 and still try to deploy Counterbalance with some filtering. Mana Drain into bomb is just that much better. You're also super heavy invested into Jace or Top to be able to spin it properly if you're going for Counterbalance.

All true.

That and Vintage is much more bomb-heavy than Legacy, which is all about mana efficiency. The Vintage power curve effectively skip 1cc and go to 2,3,4cc. Ancestral Recall and Sol Ring are probably the two that are exceptions.

I don't agree so much on this one: there are many important spells with CC1 in vintage. Excluding MUD and dredge the hate decks runs some cheap removals like stp to fight colossus, grave and tinker hate in the form of graftdigger's cage and pithing needle as a catch all against problematic lands and plneswalker.
Control decks run some number of lightning bolts to fight lodestone and hatebears, brainstorm, spell pierce, flusterstorm, spell snare as cheap answers to bombs.
Oath now gains swan song that acts both as protection AND triggers their win condition.
Storm plays with rituals obv.

1 mana spells are important in Vintage as in legacy, the proof is that mental misstep is often played in 3 copies.

[HammafistRoob]

Sensei's Top is the tits in Vintage. I can't really explain why CB sees no play, other than it's terrible against Shops and Dredge, which are the two biggest decks in the format.