[Primer] Elves!

[nudon]

I strongly agree here. I hate using GSZ as a mana dork but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. All the Maths don't factor this in necessarily, but if given the choice, I would rather play a utility guy T1 and hold the GSZ as a combo enabler or finisher or whatever you need. But I do appreciate all you smart folks doing number crunching. This shiz is interesting even for the dummies.

Thanks! LOL, you wrote the primer so you're doing pretty well! I agree that just because gsz is in your opener doesn't mean you have to use it turn 1. Against any fair deck, I would probably play birchlore/nettle/quirion/symbiote instead depending on what I have. Against combo game 1 however, I definitely would play it turn 1 to accelerate into a possible t2 win. The other thing to remember is that glimpse doesn't trigger on gsz so I'd rather take my chances bricking on a t2 glimpse than give storm another turn.

[Absolutflipz]

I think we've done a fairly decent job of outlining the min/maxing of mana dudes, quirion rangers, and birchlores, giving plenty of information for helping with the last 5% as Koby said.

To a more open area with room for improvement/discussion, imo, what are people's thoughts on Natural Order postboard, and Progenitus?

I find myself wanting to sideout NO much more often than not (see reasons discussed a few pages ago) and further don't really see where Progenitus shines (maybe against Jund and punishing-fire decks?)

Thoughts? Other sideboard thoughts, whether it be cards or in/out plans?

[Lemnear]

I think we've done a fairly decent job of outlining the min/maxing of mana dudes, quirion rangers, and birchlores, giving plenty of information for helping with the last 5% as Koby said.

Who is "we"? I still think your 3/3/3 split on DRS/Llanowar and imposters/Quirion is too far away to tackle the last 5%.

Remark: My DRS tap for mana even without a fetchland thx to Birchlore ;D

Remark 2: I'm about to run Elves instead of TES for the next big event just to test my list under extreme conditions... Maybe even making a Report similar to HotS, dunno

[Absolutflipz]

Who is "we"? I still think your 3/3/3 split on DRS/Llanowar and imposers/Quirion is too far away to tackle the last 5%.

Remark: My DRS tap for mana even without a fetchland thx to Birchlore ;D

Remark 2: I'm about to run Elves instead of TES for the next big event just to test my list under extreme conditions... Maybe even making a Report similar to HotS, dunno

I'm not sure I understand the first part of your response completely, but I was just trying to segueway into a new topic with the "We've done a good job of...." moving away, at least for the moment, the discussion of optimal mana elves, birchlores, quirion rangers and onto a new topic.

Whether we agree on a build composition right now is another story, but the discussion is there to look back at and make an informed decision of what you get with the different compositions. And what's an imposer?

[Koby]

Maybe my analysis was being too optimistic. I'm assuming the technical merits of maximizing mana production with even the stock list is well understood and recognized. Do players know all the tricks to producing the most amount of mana with their cards? Do they recognize when to play draw-Visionary-bounce-visionary-go-bounce-visionary tricks? Do they know how to fog Jitte? These seem like much bigger concerns for almost all the pilots I've seen play the deck than how to figure out the last 5 cards, or figure out if they need the first, second, or third Llanowar Elves.

There's still lots to learn before we get to the point of optimizing the last 5%. Part of that is balancing the mana dorks too.

[Dice_Box]

Maybe my analysis was being too optimistic. I'm assuming the technical merits of maximizing mana production with even the stock list is well understood and recognized. Do players know all the tricks to producing the most amount of mana with their cards? Do they recognize when to play draw-Visionary-bounce-visionary-go-bounce-visionary tricks? Do they know how to fog Jitte? These seem like much bigger concerns for almost all the pilots I've seen play the deck than how to figure out the last 5 cards, or figure out if they need the first, second, or third Llanowar Elves.

There's still lots to learn before we get to the point of optimizing the last 5%. Part of that is balancing the mana dorks too.

Those are all tricks that can be put in the opening post of a large primer like this though. I mean there might be tricks that have not found yet in this deck, but if any are found they will shared and everyone would just look at it and go "Yep, good idea. I will use that." and then move on. Every once in awhile you will have a big talk about them but in all I think its better to leave those situations to be outlined in the opening post and for us as a group to squeeze the everliving hell out of the deck. Trying to get that last 2% or 3%. Because in a comp scene you do not come first be being 98% there.

[Absolutflipz]

Maybe my analysis was being too optimistic. I'm assuming the technical merits of maximizing mana production with even the stock list is well understood and recognized. Do players know all the tricks to producing the most amount of mana with their cards? Do they recognize when to play draw-Visionary-bounce-visionary-go-bounce-visionary tricks? Do they know how to fog Jitte? These seem like much bigger concerns for almost all the pilots I've seen play the deck than how to figure out the last 5 cards, or figure out if they need the first, second, or third Llanowar Elves.

There's still lots to learn before we get to the point of optimizing the last 5%. Part of that is balancing the mana dorks too.

I think that's a fine assumption, and those who don't know should specifically ask, go play a bunch more, or read up on the primer.

Working on progressing the deck without those things under your belt is going to really hamper things.

[danyul]

I agree with Koby here IRT pilot optimization over deck optimization. There is a short bit in the primer where I mention that it's more important to know all of this deck's possible interactions than it is to have a fully optimized list. I could elaborate on that point a bit, as well as buff a bunch of other parts of the primer. I've been meaning to edit the thing for weeks now.

I have also seen quite a few "suboptimal" lists placing very highly in tournaments. I think that pilot skill, drawing well, favorable pairings, and just generally running hot, will all have a greater impact on your tournament performance than whether or not you have the Nth Llanowar Elf in your deck. So while some may find it worthwhile to discuss that stuff (and I find it interesting too, so don't feel like you shouldn't), those discussions should be taken with a grain of salt or two. We don't want to scare the Elven neophytes away just yet.

[Koby]

Agreed and good point. The core is pretty much stable at about 50 cards and that's what should be highlighted. Just trying to min/max the last few slots that have been a thorn on my side.

[Absolutflipz]

I agree with Koby here IRT pilot optimization over deck optimization. There is a short bit in the primer where I mention that it's more important to know all of this deck's possible interactions than it is to have a fully optimized list. I could elaborate on that point a bit, as well as buff a bunch of other parts of the primer. I've been meaning to edit the thing for weeks now.

I have also seen quite a few "suboptimal" lists placing very highly in tournaments. I think that pilot skill, drawing well, favorable pairings, and just generally running hot, will all have a greater impact on your tournament performance than whether or not you have the Nth Llanowar Elf in your deck. So while some may find it worthwhile to discuss that stuff (and I find it interesting too, so don't feel like you shouldn't), those discussions should be taken with a grain of salt or two. We don't want to scare the Elven neophytes away just yet.

I get what you're saying, but we also can't discuss running hot, drawing well, or favorable pairings - we can discuss improving the list and proper play of it.

In other news, I can't seem to get anyone to bite on discussing sideboard(ing) with the deck, which I think is a pretty big space for improvement/understanding, as games 2 and 3 are the hardest to play with the deck.

[danyul]

I can appreciate that. I never meant to stifle discussion. I just wanted to add some context, that's all.

Also, I've seen you asking about SBing but I've just been waiting for somebody else to answer you, since I often don't remember how I board so I didn't think I would have anything useful to add. Sometimes I make crazy choices based on instinct, and sometimes it doesn't matter what I board because I win or lose from some other angle. I'll try to put some time towards that when I get off work in a few hours.. And we can hash it out, brah.

[Dice_Box]

I think a lot of the sideboard is mostly the same across most of the decks.

Cabal Therapy (3-4)
Abrupt Decay (3-4)
NO (0-1)
Gaddock Teeg (1)
Scavenging Ooze (1)
Harmonic Sliver (1)
Ruric Thar (0-1)
Progenitus (0-1)
Umezawa's Jitte (0-1)

Then you have meta slots. Personally I run Loaming Shaman and Realm Razer. I think I got everything.

[Koby]

In other news, I can't seem to get anyone to bite on discussing sideboard(ing) with the deck, which I think is a pretty big space for improvement/understanding, as games 2 and 3 are the hardest to play with the deck.

Let's start with your sideboard. What are you running, or want to run? I can recommend my own, but it's geared towards how I approach my trouble matchups so it may not apply well universally.

[Absolutflipz]

Let's start with your sideboard. What are you running, or want to run? I can recommend my own, but it's geared towards how I approach my trouble matchups so it may not apply well universally.

Ok - the maindeck:

3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Elvish Mystic
1x Llanowar Elves
3x Quirion Ranger
2x Birchlore Ranger
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Craterhoof Behemoth

4x GSZ
4x Glimpse
3x Natural Order
1x Flex (Crop Rotation, V. Shaman, Ooze, Jitte) - let's say Viridian Shaman for now

9x Green Fetches
2x Forest
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard-
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize (you may consider this 4x Therapy for generic purposes without getting into the Therapy vs other discard argument)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Thalia
2x Thorns of Amethyst
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Sylvan Library
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Absolute Law (possibly E. Witness against discard/grindy mu's)

[nudon]

Sideboard-
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize (you may consider this 4x Therapy for generic purposes without getting into the Therapy vs other discard argument)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Thalia
2x Thorns of Amethyst
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Sylvan Library
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Absolute Law

Glad you finally listened and took out Domri Rade. In my opinion, there needs to be at least 3 decays because of how bad the miracles matchup is. Unless there's a lot of grim lavamancer in your area, the absolute law might not be necessary. Library might not be necessary too depending what's in your meta. Progenitus occupies 1 (or 2 for NO#4) but beats every fair, non-blue deck out there. Everything else is pretty stock. Finally, the 2nd mystic in the MD should be fyndhorn due to therapy and echoing truth if you really want 3 llanowars.

[Absolutflipz]

Glad you finally listened and took out Domri Rade. In my opinion, there needs to be at least 3 decays because of how bad the miracles matchup is. Unless there's a lot of grim lavamancer in your area, the absolute law might not be necessary. Library might not be necessary too depending what's in your meta. Progenitus occupies 1 (or 2 for NO#4) but beats every fair, non-blue deck out there. Everything else is pretty stock. Finally, the 2nd mystic in the MD should be fyndhorn due to therapy and echoing truth if you really want 3 llanowars.

Sure re: Mystic/Fyndhorn/Llanowar for therapy, but then I'll have a non-foil =(

I still think Domri/Garruk Relentless could be good...but another time.

The Absolute Law is a slight nod to RUG delver and Punishing Fire decks which I consider pretty tricky MU's, esp. postboard.

A third decay over the 1 Sylvan is possible as it helps against Delver...but I'm pretty hopeless on ever beating Miracles.

Re: Progenitus that's where I saw him as being best, i.e. against Jund, Punishing Fire decks, and Goblins (tho many Goblin sb's will have perish as the deck is weak to Goyf)? I dont think he's good against a non-blue deck like Maverick or the GW death and taxes as most play Thalia and Teeg, and sometimes Mindcensor. Is this enough to warrant a spot for him? What other decks is he great against where Hoof wouldn't get it done?

[Dice_Box]

Most goblins have moved to White for Thalia and combo hate. Your more likely to see an O ring than a perish from goblins these days.

[Kayradis]

I think we tackled most of the problem could encounter Game 1.
But, what are the really problematic match up for the deck and what can we do to improve it?

By my own experience, I know that RUG Delver/Canadian Threshold is quite a pain in the ass. I think I lose close to 55+% of the matched againts the deck.

What could be the SB strategies we could introduce in order to make that match up move viable?
I know I have a different view of SB'ing after discussion with many of my friends around here.

[Zombie]

Yeah, Delver decks are a PITA. They have enough counters and removal to stop us from forming engines well, and a good pressure game. I think the two routes to consider are boarding into Therapy + NO=>Prog/Ruric plan because they have a hard time killing them and their relevant effects don't die to Stifle.
The other is deploying a minimal amount of stuff on the board, and going for a protected Glimpse to emulate Storm's Empty plan which RUG at least handles pretty poorly. I can't test it atm, but thus far I've tried deploying dudes on the board and largely just lost miserably.
The third option is just Absolute Law, at which point they're basically screwed barring Delvers.

[Kayradis]

As a fact, last time I played against RUG in a tournament, Ruric Thar won me both games.
When it comes to him chump blocking with Goyf while your DRS are removing relevant stuff before damage from the yard (Sorceries or instants) multiple times with Quirion/Symbiote activations, it create a soft lock against such deck.

I do belive that Sylvan Safekeeper is quite good in that matchup, but I dont like the whole Sac. A Land unfortunately. The land count is pretty low, but getting rid of fetches when your land count on the battlefield is optimal can be quite advantageous.