[Primer] Elves!

[Kayradis]

Right now, I'm believing in a surprise resurgence of Reanimator in the really near future. (3-4 months timeframe)
Gods were confirmed in Theros. Heroes were confirmed and that giganormous Hydra as well. Should we dedicate more of our SB to GY hate and start to look what's ahead of us?

Yes, right now we have problems with RUG. But more and more reanimator decks are making it into T8-16.
We can't beat Iona/Elesh Norm T2. And they will FoW our T1 DRS.

Leyline of the Void could be the out, unfortunately, at 4 CMC and BB in the mana cost, its shitty to draw mid/late game.

@Lemnear : Have you noticed that in Europe as well?

[Dice_Box]

What do we want to use Grip to target that Decay can not be sued to deal with already?

Also, if you use Grip against Top and they top card of their library is a 3 CC card, you still face a counted grip.

[Kayradis]

Is Countertop our main threat here?

Im looking at something that can target mostly all our problems(Trinisphere and friends)
And if they flip a 4CMC K.Grip resolves ;)

[Dice_Box]

Is Countertop our main threat here?

Im looking at something that can target mostly all our problems(Trinisphere and friends)
And if they flip a 4CMC K.Grip resolves ;)

I meant to say 3 cc. Did not mean 4. Trin dies to Decay, CotV does too. I do not see an issue on running it in place of Grip.

[Kayradis]

I understood that! Was just a typo.

Still, what is our GY hate other than ScOoze and DRS G2?

[Zombie]

It is better as an overall sideboard card, but if i think of a card against rug rest in peace is better. Ooze only eats creatures, so goyf will lose only one point,and mongoose can be a 3/3 aniway. With rest in peace goyf is a 0/1 and mongoose a 1/1 forever. Ooze can also be hit by submerge.

Ooze hits everything. It removes any card you wish, then afterwards checks if it was a critter. if yes, big slime and life points.

[Dice_Box]

I think saying that Ooze is going to solve all our issues is a trap. I know its a good answer, but it is still a creature, the easiest of all permits to remove. I think personally we should either be running two Ooze or a combo of an Ooze and something else as backup.

[Lemnear]

Right now, I'm believing in a surprise resurgence of Reanimator in the really near future. (3-4 months timeframe)
Gods were confirmed in Theros. Heroes were confirmed and that giganormous Hydra as well. Should we dedicate more of our SB to GY hate and start to look what's ahead of us?

Yes, right now we have problems with RUG. But more and more reanimator decks are making it into T8-16.
We can't beat Iona/Elesh Norm T2. And they will FoW our T1 DRS.

Leyline of the Void could be the out, unfortunately, at 4 CMC and BB in the mana cost, its shitty to draw mid/late game.

@Lemnear : Have you noticed that in Europe as well?

I doubt reanimator will make a Comeback soon because this issue with the deck aren't the creatures but being a 3-card combo depending on the graveyard. The combo pieces between reanimate effects, creature dumping and creatures itself is a relic of the past with other combo decks like OmniTell or storm.dec only having 2 combo-components. Scavenging Ooze and DRS will keep Reanimator in Check .

Moreover I'm a strong believer that the upcoming "god" cards will either have the colorless insane mana costs like eldrazi or no mana cost at all, with you only being to "summon" those under Special conditions (see the range of Special summons in YuGiOh to get an idea or the Shadowborn Apostle from M14).

Ooze is probably the best solution to the problems with RUG.

@Europe: I'm not able to talk for Europe out of my lil microcosmos. I still see a lot of goblins and Mavericks compared to the US but also a flood of RUG & BUG, as well as combo decks like S&T variants, Elves and ANT's. (Feel like being a rare example prefering TES' madness). JUND seems on the decline locally, maybe because of being stomped by our combo players. At least help to keep the animal farm (Elves, Zoo, Goblins) in Check.

[andrebonotto]

I think saying that Ooze is going to solve all our issues is a trap. I know its a good answer, but it is still a creature, the easiest of all permits to remove. I think personally we should either be running two Ooze or a combo of an Ooze and something else as backup.

Maybe Loaming Shaman could fit that role.


But I'm not sure of his efficiency, since Ooze:

1. costs less to summon/be GSZ'ed (both options avaiable on T2);
2. gets to be a bigger threat on the course of the game (while also shrinking other threats like Goyfs/Moongeese constantly/more than once);
3. has the potential to keep the GY in check for a greater period of time;

(Personally, I'm currently running Ooze #1 MD and Ooze #2 at SB.)

[Kayradis]

Loaming Shaman is a cute idea, but I doubt it could be functionnal.

The 1 ScOoze MD and 1 SB is something I can totally get behind. The card is simply amazing at worst!

[Dice_Box]

Loaming Shaman is a good choice. As I said in my list of sideboard cards, I run him and I like him. His ability to either kill off someone else's grave or put mine back in my deck has saved me. Dredge hates him a lot. Reanimate decks on the other hand are not bothered to the same effect and will gladly play on.

Still he is a CIP effect that can save you, or dam them. I can't be the only guy that's had a long drawn out game that's ended with all my Symbiote's sitting the the grave. I am not going to say yet I think he is the perfect answer. Also since I have built two new decks with tax (and finished my elves) I have not had a large amount of play time with him of late.

I will be running Elves again for a few weeks though. I think I really need to pick a deck and stick with it for a while. I will post my final thoughts on Loaming in a month/month and a half.

Edit:
Don't underestimate Loaming. He is more that just cute. My favourite thing is when he put all the fetches back into the other guys deck and he no longer has any real targets left actually decreasing the usefulness of those draws. Still that's a very unique situation but his effects are sting and instant felt.

P.S. Fixes my phones "Helpful" Auto corrections.

[Kayradis]

Okay,

What about I give him a try and I'll let you know my actual and factual opinion of him?

Im playing Dredge tonight. I need to play a full GY based deck for a while. I want to feel what is like to be on the receiving end of a DRS.

[Dice_Box]

Cool. The more opinions the better. It's helpful to have different eyes on the same situation.

[Kayradis]

What is your current SB configuration?
Just curious.

[Dice_Box]

Current Side is:


4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 NO
1 Progentis/Ruric Thar*
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Realm Razer**
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Pro and Thar take up the same slot, I change them dependent on who is playing that week so one is always main and the other is always side.

Realm Razer is not permanent, there is a Land's deck local and I just want to have a laugh when I play it just once. I do not plan to keep it long term.

[danyul]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Loaming Shaman (or RIP). And the arguments offered up in favor are of it aren't at all convincing. I don't want to run what amounts to a Feldon's Cane + Plow Under.

And your best bet against Reanimator? Throw hexes and bad juju at those players and hope you don't get paired. There's no reason to worry about a resurgence of those decks before it actually happens. We'll cross that bridge, hand in hand, should we ever get to it.

[Absolutflipz]

I'm looking at Gerry T's list from the Invitational right now and the scariest things I see are 2x Golgari Charm. Their answers are all generally more expensive than our threats. And their clock is slow enough that we have an opportunity to recover from discard.

I'd probably just bring in Abrupt Decays and Scooze #2 (I have 1 main). You may have just been getting god-handed by them. Do you have any specific play-by-plays you can share? That might help us see where you are having problems.

Edit - unrelated, but I was messing with a Modern deck and saw a card that could be interesting to use - Defense Grid. Is there any merit to this card? Or am I trying to be too cute?

Yeah, I always seem to get hit with T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn your most relevant cards.

I'm playing tonight and thinking of boarding: 1 Progenitus, 2 Ooze, 1 Eternal Witness, and possibly 1 Thoughtseize and 1 Therapy - Taking out -1 Heritage, -1 Nettle, -1 Quirion, -1Hoof - Then -1 Birchlore and -1 Llanowar if I bring in the 2x Discard.

Also, if you run like I do and always draw Progenitus...the Seize/Therapy can be used to discard it if necessary.

Abrupt decay seems ok, but not sure it's needed or better than discard used against FoW or Charm (tyring to push through a Progenitus). Also worth noting that Viridian Shaman hits Strix and Agent.

I've looked at Defense Grid too, and I don't think it's nearly good enough because it only shuts off counterspells and doesn't do anything against sweepers or discard. It seems like a much better card for Sneak and Show and why you see it showing up in those sideboards.

[HammafistRoob]

I doubt reanimator will make a Comeback soon because this issue with the deck aren't the creatures but being a 3-card combo depending on the graveyard.

What? Entomb+ Exhume is not a 3 card combo.

(Bad attempt at making post on topic);
This deck is the tits. Killing people with 20/21 Trampling Deathrites has to be the coolest thing ever.

[danyul]

Yeah, I always seem to get hit with T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn your most relevant cards.

I looked at Gerry T's list from the Invitational and Justin Uppal's list from the Open on the same weekend. They both run 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn main, with an additional 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn in the board.

If you are getting hit with that 1, 2 sequence in Game 1, well, that sucks I guess. Those are both 2-ofs and sometimes shit happens. In postboard games, sure, they get more discard. But that's the same package that Jund runs, and Jund also has cheaper/better removal in Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire. And I'm not afraid of Jund at all.

If this fear of Shardless BUG was borne out of some extended testing session or multiple unfortunate tournament encounters, then I would be more concerned...for all of Elvenkind. But I get the feeling that you just had a couple bad games and want to come back with a vengeance. And that's okay too. I'm just not sure how to contextualize your concern.

[Absolutflipz]

I looked at Gerry T's list from the Invitational and Justin Uppal's list from the Open on the same weekend. They both run 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn main, with an additional 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn in the board.

If you are getting hit with that 1, 2 sequence in Game 1, well, that sucks I guess. Those are both 2-ofs and sometimes shit happens. In postboard games, sure, they get more discard. But that's the same package that Jund runs, and Jund also has cheaper/better removal in Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire. And I'm not afraid of Jund at all.

If this fear of Shardless BUG was borne out of some extended testing session or multiple unfortunate tournament encounters, then I would be more concerned...for all of Elvenkind. But I get the feeling that you just had a couple bad games and want to come back with a vengeance. And that's okay too. I'm just not sure how to contextualize your concern.

I was more just looking on thoughts of how to board the matchup.

I'm pretty set on +1 Progenitus, +2 Ooze, +1 Eternal Witness (or insert whatever c/a card you have).

My question now is whether a couple Discard spells are worth it to bring in to hit devastating cards like Charm or to get a FoW out of the way to get Progenitus out.

This matchup seems very dependent on Progenitus, Visionary/Symbiote, and Ooze/Deathrite. What do you think?