Chalice stopped beeing autowin vs BUG/Elves/Tendrils that is for sure - Abrupt Decay change it.
Because Canonist don't stop cantrips, delvers, bolts etc...Originally Posted by Justin
Some people play Chalice. There are a lot of options in that range though. And it is not a creature, and D+T tends to favor weaker disruption piggybacked on a body over stronger disruption without.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Dropping the deck. My meta is too hostile. I'll come back when I don't have bad matchups against 90% of the decks in my meta.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
Second place at the 525-player SCG Legacy Open at Somerset went to an aggressive Death and Taxes build (4 Serra Avengers + 4 Mirran Crusader, no Flickerwisp or Mindcensor). He ran 4 Flagstones of Trokair.
Is this something worth testing? It gets worse against Blood Moon and Back to Basics, and opens yourself up to an upkeep Wasteland (to take you off mana for one turn), but it works nicely with Cataclysm. Also, I like not having to buy more Beta Plains.
I've been personally curious about Flagstone since hearing about the legend rule change - Does anyone have any experience/input on it?
I am personally not a fan of the aggressive-build.
Loosing the wisps puts you on a bad spot a lot of times. It just shows how strong this deck is even without the most "acclaimed" cards. The flagstones were put off by a number of reasons, but they can have their place (as with all cards) in the correct meta. Flagstones + armageddon was a old school weenie tech that worked, so cataclysm is only better. I really depends what you want to attack.
Flagstones acts like a pseudo fetchland that's immediately tappable for white therefore avoiding the mana screw from a turn1 stifle. While we were playtesting his deck, the play was always tap Flagstones for W, play second Flagstone and sacrifice the first one for the fetch trigger. He was still on par for lands but it thinned out the deck. The card would have been really broken if the plains didn't come in tapped.
Hey folks. Unlike just about every other Legacy deck ever, the best discussion for this deck is not at this site.
Try: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633
But briefly, there had been a lot of talk about going with Flagstones with the rules change. I think that eventually most people decided not to for a few reasons. For one, the deck thinning is very marginal, and the merits of it have been mathematically proven to be of nearly no value. Actually, the math is rather simple. By contrast, adding extra lands to your graveyard helps opposing Tarmos and especially Deathrite Shamans a perceptible amount. Considering how ubiquitous they are I have my reservations of ever taking that chance. The other advantage, that of Cataclysm recovery, is compelling, but that is only true if you have Cataclysm. I have cut mine because they had been lackluster in certain key matchups. Finally, you have to consider that basic lands have intrinsic value. They are immune to the effects of Blood Moon, a card that pops up every once in a while. And I almost don't believe it happened so quickly, but getting your Flagstones Wastelanded on your upkeep has a tempo issue. I thought it would not happen much but I heard that it already cost Kurpaska a game, though I did not see it.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Finished 5th in a 70+ tourney. 2nd after swiss with a 5-0-2 record, only to lose to the 7th seed. Funny thing is I won against all 5 combo decks I faced, but lost to Punishing Jund in a very close game 3.
My list is basically the list in the OP except -1 plains, -1 Judge's Familiar, -1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Cavern of Souls, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, +1 Fiend Hunter. First time I dropped my Avengers. (Used to do a 2 Avenger-3 Crusader split)
R1: TES (2-0)
- Batterskull > Empty the Warrens
R2: ANT (2-1)
- Lost game 1, he mulls to 5 games 2 and 3. Didn't have a plains game 2, and he was forced to hardcast Massacre to kill Thalia but I just dropped another 1, game 3 I didn't drop plains all game and stranded his Massacre in hand with my army of hatebears.
R3: Sneak Show (2-0)
- G1 you can't lose with Mother, Revoker on Sneak and Karakas.
R4: MonoU Omnitell (2-0)
- G1 turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mangara, turn 4 Karakas Mangara a land, he didn't reach 4 to Show. In one of the critical turns, to play around FoW, I attack, during attack phase Mangara the only untapped land then bounce, then on 2nd main phase, play Mangara again.
- G2 Thalia plus Ports and surprisingly wasteland on City of Traitors.
R5: Sneak Show (2-1)
- G1 Godhand of Vial Mom Revoker Thalia Karakas Port
- G2 Epic match, Pithing on Sneak, but he managed to play Through the Breach (with Thalia in play) for Emmy, wiping my board, but he proceeds to blank on his cantrips with me at 3. I got him down to 1 when he blindly flips his top card for an Emrakul, with a Sneak in play. So close! I was already seeing shades of GP Strasbourg.
- G3 I have Mother and Revoker on Sneak, he Shows I drop Batterskull, he drops Griselbrand. I have Karakas already. He drew 7 when I bounced. He was at 4 life, with an Ancient Tomb in play, and he Through-the-Breaches Emmy, but I had 7 permanents because of the germ token. Revoker lives and he is pinched to death.
Drew the next 2 rounds
Quarters: Punishing Jund (1-2)
G1: Totally got raped by his double Deathrite, Punishing Fire and Grove hand. (I have nothing that survives Fire and even after dealing with the Grove, he just deathrites the creature that he killed.
G2: Won with Wilt-Leaf liege, which I had to vial in, with a Jitte and Solas plus a RIP in play. Survived through a Pernicious Deed activation.
G3: Lost a very close one. It was back and forth, he dominated me at the start due to 2 Lilianas but somehow I took care of it (Had to throw my Mirran Crusader only for him to -2 his Liliana). He even did the Liliana at 2, -2 so it dies, then plays another to +1 it. But I managed to stabilize later and was actually leading at one point with a Thalia in play with Karakas protection and a freshly cast Stoneforge grabbing Batterskull. But then he Abrupt decays Thalia so I bounce, then double thoughtseizes Thalia and Batterskull. I got him down to 5 with a Fiend Hunter removing a Bloodbraid, but he then draws another one which cascades into Abrupt. I was pissed because I drew 4 lands even after a Canopy activation, after playing Fiend Hunter and his board was just lands (So I swung Stoneforge twice, then 3 Fiend Hunter attacks). If I had drawn another creature, I could've won.
I thought I sb'd wrong in the Jund Matchup. I went -3 Mangara, -3 Flickerwisp, -2 Thalia to bring in 4 RIPs, 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 1 Sunlance and 1 Pithing Needle. I think I should've kept in some number of Flickerwisps as I lacked beaters. I removed Mangara and Thalia because of Engineered Plague. And Mangara really sucks in this matchup because of the number of removals in his deck. Also, my mindset was Flickerwisp dies to all his removal spells, that's why I removed them. Any thoughts?
Also, Liliana is such a beating against us. Or maybe it was my lack of fliers that exacerbated the problem.
Most feared Top Death and Taxes player in the Philippines! Nice Games! Grats! I'm still bitter about that 7 permanents you had when Emrakul annihilatored you and that Revoker dealing the last 2 points of damage
Last edited by blindspotxxx; 08-05-2013 at 08:31 PM.
congrats on the strong finish!
I usually side out Vials and Revokers against Jund. Removing creatures is not a good idea because you want as many threats as possible.
I usually side out Vials and Revokers against Jund. Removing too many creatures is not a good idea because you want as many threats as possible.
honestly, you want to be siding out Thalia. She is just bad against them.
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
Against Jund? If so, interesting, I've found Thalia to be of high value in the match. Their deck is fairly creature light, usually 15-16 and their removal/curve isn't naturally that cheap - Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, Liliana - at +1 mana each it attacks their tempo until answered. Thalia trumps all of their creatures except Tarmogoyf in combat. Thalia is our most easily protected threat given Mother of Runes and Karakas.
From the Team Rocket list against Jund I was cutting 2 Mangara, 2 Aven Mindcensor and a 'Wisp for 2 Rest In Peace, 2 Wilt-Leaf and Sunlance. I could see the merit in finding another chop for a 2nd Jitte as that card seals the game quickly.
Finn, what you are forgetting to mention is that Flagstones of Trokair is a shuffle effect in a deck that has 4 to 8 shuffle effects under normal circumstances (and only 8 if you are playing a playset of E. Tutors in your sideboard). While it is true that the deck thinning is of marginal benefit at best, the shuffle effect is of monumental benefit to this deck. Especially when compared to the card that it would most likely be replacing (Horizon Canopy), which only lets you draw one card, and costs a life when you use it for colored mana. In contrast Flagstones doesn't hurt your life total, and allows you to further randomize your deck, while also thinning it ever so slightly. These two facts weigh heavily in it's favor. And that is even if you ignore the fact of it's interactions with Cataclysm and Armageddon. With those two things considered, especially with the new legend rule, this card is a beautiful gem, and I personally will be running it from now on in my Death and Taxes decks.
And arguing that Flagstones wastlanded on your upkeep has a tempo issue, that's true of any land other than a TRUE Fetch land dude. Thats kind of the game your playing (not to mention the whole point of Rishadan Port, despite the fact that it doesn't destroy the land). Granted the tempo issue is more pronounced with Flagstones than with most lands, but it is still there with any non-basic land. And its not like you have to run 4x Flagstones to utilize them.
Something I have been wondering, do you guys still swap 1 for 1 when sideboarding, or do you adjust your deck size between matches depending on what you are facing? You know, now that you don't have to strictly keep your sideboard size at 15 cards total...
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
^Flagstones doesn't replace Canopy, it replaces Plains, hence the wasteland causing tempo play, as evidenced by that final match between Kurpaska and Fabiano. Flagstones also opens you up to Blood Moon and Back to Basics. We don't need the shuffle effect as we don't play Brainstorm or Top. It doesn't do enough to justify its inclusion.
I don't see how a shuffle effect is any benefit to this deck at all. The one benefit I am interested in is heading off the alt cost of Massacre. But mostly I agree with jumbo.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
We run around 14 Non-Basic Lands as it is (can cut that down to an effective 11 non-basics since we never play more than one Karakas at any given time). We are already vulnerable to Blood Moon and Back to Basics as it is.
As for your claim that Flagstones doesn't replace Horizon Canopy... that's just foolishness. Horizon Canopy and Flagstones essentially fill the same spot in the decklist. If it weren't for the fact that some deck builders wanted card draw (and the creation of Cavern of Souls) we would in effect be running 11 to 12 Plains instead of what we are currently running as our basic land count (9 Plains). Fact is, an individual could very easily get away with running ZERO Horizon Canopies, and instead running 2 or 3 Flagstones of Trokair in their place.
As for your allegation that we don't need a shuffle effect because we don't play Brainstorm or Top... that is categorically false. Shuffle Effects are absolutely required in this game. And our deck has the benefit of FOUR of them as auto-includes. Just because Stoneforge Mystic doubles as a Tutor and a Cheat-Into-Play effect, does not change the fact that it is in fact also a shuffle effect. In point of fact several Death and Taxes players have been known to play a Stoneforge Mystic after having already searched for all of their equipment just in order to get the shuffle effect. Are you going to tell them that they shouldn't have done that? Fact is that shuffle effects are needed by this deck. In fact I would argue that they are needed far more by this deck because of the lack of proper fetch lands, than they are by any other deck. The fact is that our land base is so fragile that we can't really afford to run true fetch lands, thus we can't really make use of most of the games shuffle effects. So we have to settle for other types of shuffle effects instead. Just because we don't run Top and Brainstorm is no reason for us not to make use of perfectly good shuffle effects when they present themselves and they synergize with our decks already present cards.
Obviously you both must be the kings of hax if neither of you have run into situations where you have drawn 5 cards in a row that have been duds in the situation that you happen to be in, and where you wish you had some way to randomize your deck a little. I know I sure have been in that situation.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
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