[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[GtF]

Thanks for the responses. The games it did shine most were against reanimator and main deck Grave hate slash accel is ace. I know I've envied hierarch many times but she wasn't powerful enough to make the cut (and not blk). Maybe I will bump up to 4 for awhile to see for myself once the cards arrive. Say this makes me feel more inclined to run bombs like hymn, liliana and maybe even phyrexian arena over library as 1-ofs. Do you guys find bomby cards more doable now and how about the 4th stalker?

Yeah I was always on the fence about whether to run hymn vs. thoughtseize due to the mana difference, but with Deathrite in the deck now, Hymn is definitely the right card to run. I'm also running a 1 of Liliana and it's been very good, Deathrite makes this more possible as well. I still think I'd run Sylvan library over Phyrexian Arena though just because I think it's arguably a better card in addition to being a mana cheaper.

[Tombstalker]

Got some pickup games in with a full set of shamans and wow... they make all our cards better, theirs worse and then double as a threat! Goyf might just be the worst creature in the deck. I was on the tap out for bombs plan before and now it's even better haha.

[ryscott85]

Just a quick question for everyone on this deck. It looks like a blast to play however; I was just wondering what the advantages of playing a deck like BUG Delver are over Rug delver,(If any) in a competitive environment. I know many of the cards are similar, however; it just seems to me that the burn gives more reach. Are you just trading bolts, spell pierces, and mongoose for abrupt decay, deathrite shaman, and thoughtseize? Thanks!

[metronome2charisma]

so i played a 39 person mox tourney in somerville today going 3-3 .i had good breakers and could have 4-2ed to top 8 but didn't so heres what i played and a short report.

4 delver
4 deathrite
4 goof
2 tomb stalker
14

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
3 daze
4 stifle
3 hymn
2 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
2 dismember
27

3 sea
3 bayou
1 trop
4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 misty
19

s.b.
1 golgari charm
2 surgical extraction
1 liliana
1 scavenging ooze
1 spell pierce
2 fluster storm
2 winter orb
2 engineered plague
1 clique
1 abrupt decay
1 sylvan

so....
round 1
t.e.s. (0-1)
i lost the role and and had a force but he still went off with a silence turn two
game two was only 3 turns and he wins at 4 life .
round 2 (1-1)
t.e.s.
was able to use daze and hymn and two delvers to win
game two he fizzles and pretty much kills himself after a mull to 5
round 3 (2-1)
mono blue enter the infinite( it has a name but it escapes me)
game one he mulls to five and plays one land i play delver into goyf into hymn and and that did it
game two he mulls to 4 i play delver in to hymn into lilliana ,activate liliana 3 times he ponders and plays show and tell into enter the infinite and draws his whole deck and we dual till i'm dead
game three involves an opener of 2 delvers 2 ponders, daze, force, misty .i snap keep .play a delver and pass. he plays a ponder of an island and passes. another delver ponder finds a clique and a third land and the next turn (his draw phase) i let him keep them and he can't win before he dies to the beats
round 4 (3-1)
scapeshift nic fit.
delver and goyf get there after a stifled pernicious deed
game 2 he kills me with a primeval titan
game three me beating with an unflipped delver does some work on his lie total then lilly empties his hand after a hymn but he top decks a scapeshift and stfle the valakut triggers and he cant top deck mountains fast enough to race my tombstalker
round 5 (3-2)
manaless dredge
not much of a game..i knew this going in as we're both from the same store.
game two i play deathrite he plays nothing and discards phantasmagorian and discards his hand i play another deathrite and get rid of his grave troll andpashe dredges someting else and a bunch of other stupid crap and eventually is able to dread return for the win after he cabal therapys my force of wills...
round 6 (3-3)
esper stoneblade
game one batterskull and a flash backed lingering souls gets there..
game 2 . 2 tomb stalkers beat him down
game three a Geist of st.traft with a batter skull get through my 4/5 goyf and then my tomb stalker then its over....so.

over all my play was ok i would have made a couple different plays but i was happy. the deck feels really strong. i cant decide if i like hymn better or spell pierce and gitaxian probe golgari charm is fun but i didn't use it much winter orb is awesome in the rite matchup and keeps daze live wayyyy later in the game. . goyf felt like the weak link alot but it was still golf.. well there you have it.stuff.

[Tombstalker]

ryscott85Just a quick question for everyone on this deck. It looks like a blast to play however; I was just wondering what the advantages of playing a deck like BUG Delver are over Rug delver,(If any) in a competitive environment. I know many of the cards are similar, however; it just seems to me that the burn gives more reach. Are you just trading bolts, spell pierces, and mongoose for abrupt decay, deathrite shaman, and thoughtseize? Thanks!

Don't forget tombstalker! I'm returning after a long hiatus so perhaps things have changed although these decks are very cyclical with just a few new additions.
Anyway playing with both in the past I feel the strengths of TA is/was its more aggressive 'tap out' approach with hand disruption hard removal flying demons and now DRS which it seems RUG will be looking to include like every other deck.. Pierce isn't lost just put to the board and I'm actually toying with geese in the board too so it's basically the burn + red SB and ultra low curve you trade.

Personally after switching to RUG for awhile I found that RUG ran super smooth, smoother than TA, but it lacked the sheer power of TA and RUG stalled to creature strategies that TA doesn't sweat. I prefer TA although RUG is a great deck too. Still feeling out the latest changes to the format though so take it for what it's worth.

[Zand]

Prize split the finals of a Black Lotus tournament with this deck today, it's still good! Tombstalker and Hymns were outstanding all day.

[gwarfreak]

My current list is:
20 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bayou

14 CREATURES
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Vendilion Clique

24 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe (replacing the 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Timur Babakol's list)

SIDEBOARD
2 Snuff Out
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Deathmark
1 Infest
1 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Golgari Charm

I love everything about it, except the stifles. The stifles always seem to be in my hand being mostly useless toward the end of the game. The land count makes enemy stifles and wastelands recoverable. It also allows me to use drt and maintain pressure more effectively. The cliques go over the top of ground wars and act as a duress when needed. I have reach with drs and clique. Probe is incredible giving me the ability to understand was is important over the next few turns. I have repeatedly beat the more greedy RBUG version with a single wasteland and this deck does not have that same vulnerability. Abrupt Decay is always great and I do not miss the counterable and limited lightning bolt. The SB is prolly awful but I do not understand the format well enough to fix it. I have searched the last dozen pages or so for non-stifle versions and I cannot seem to find one. Drew Levin advocated cutting them (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...er-Primer.html) but that is a year old article. I know if you cut the stifles, they end up with more land drops and thus your dazes and wastelands are much less powerful but I rarely seem to have the time/ ability to stifle because I have to press the attack. Is it a mostly settled question? Sinkhole seems too bulky but is it an option? What would I trade them for? More probe, daze, probe, thoughtsieze?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

More probe, daze, probe, thoughtsieze?

-4 Stifle
+1 Ponder
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Dismeber

alternatively 1 Sylvan in place of the Ponder.

-4 Stifle
+3 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Dismember

I do like the first setup more, Sylvan is always awesome and Spell Pierce is pretty good in an open field, though i can see it being additional discard, a Snapcaster, more removal or anything else.

[apistat_commander]

I love everything about it, except the stifles. The stifles always seem to be in my hand being mostly useless toward the end of the game. The land count makes enemy stifles and wastelands recoverable. It also allows me to use drt and maintain pressure more effectively. The cliques go over the top of ground wars and act as a duress when needed. I have reach with drs and clique. Probe is incredible giving me the ability to understand was is important over the next few turns. I have repeatedly beat the more greedy RBUG version with a single wasteland and this deck does not have that same vulnerability. Abrupt Decay is always great and I do not miss the counterable and limited lightning bolt. The SB is prolly awful but I do not understand the format well enough to fix it. I have searched the last dozen pages or so for non-stifle versions and I cannot seem to find one. Drew Levin advocated cutting them (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...er-Primer.html) but that is a year old article. I know if you cut the stifles, they end up with more land drops and thus your dazes and wastelands are much less powerful but I rarely seem to have the time/ ability to stifle because I have to press the attack. Is it a mostly settled question? Sinkhole seems too bulky but is it an option? What would I trade them for? More probe, daze, probe, thoughtsieze?

The TA list that Daniel Signorini developed runs Hymn in place of Stifle. This puts you into a position of tapping out more often, but you have a spell that trades 2 for 1 which is pretty rare for Tempo. Instead of using Thoughtseize to pick apart their hand you just blow it to pieces. Stifle doesn't fit as well into that version because you are tapping out more often and relying on Daze/FoW/Decay to handle everything. In the end, I think it comes down to your local meta. If you see more combo and control targeted discard and Stifle become better. If you see more aggro and mid-range, Hymn is better.

Also if you already have Thoughtseize and Clique, do you really need Gitaxian Probe? I would run 4 Ponder, because you want to see it every game. Also +1 on the suggestion of adding Dismember.

[gwarfreak]

Also if you already have Thoughtseize and Clique, do you really need Gitaxian Probe? I would run 4 Ponder, because you want to see it every game. Also +1 on the suggestion of adding Dismember.

Clique is castable well into the game (interesting format) where such an effect is significantly diminished in power. Most significantly it can tell you the matchup and how the first few turns are going to unfold.

Thank you for the advice BTW, I saved both as decklists so hopefully I will get a feel for the new lineups.

I hate to phrase it this way, but what are the point of the Lilianas? The only deck that we can bully around, card advantage wise, seems to be RUG. Charms seem much better in that matchup.

[Tombstalker]

Ive been a fan of the 'tapout' method since it was innovated and its still very powerful but recently with the printing of DRS ive done a rethink. Stifle is a very powerful card and its value is directly effected by the curve of the deck and especially the CC of your threats among other things (like how many sorcerys vs instants etc).

Ive been brewing and testing what I consider to be the new face of TA, although many will say it is grixis but I feel it is still TA at heart. Anyway heres what ive been using and its been insane so far, ive been calling it the anti thresh:

4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
3 tombstalker

4 force of will
4 daze
3 stifle

4 bolt
2 decay

2 liliana

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour (possibly flex spots)

2 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
2 badlands
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island

SB
1 fire covenant
2 perish
2 dread of night
2 submerge
2 mongoose
1 clique
2 REB
2 gilded drake
1 reanimate

Ive ditched goyf dont miss him. The deck packs 11 evasive threats and nearly identical curve to RUG with bigger bombs.

Heres a few noteworthy things/synergies about the deck that may or may not be apparent at first glance:

-manabase is just as sturdy as traditional TA often sturdier since it only wants green for decay and all threats/counters/cantrips are U/B.

-it focuses on bettering its main wincons and beating RUG and green based aggro decks. 11 threats makes delver flips what they should be and all evasive creature suite avoids ground stalls common to goyf and RUG in general. This deck gives RUG fits btw by basically playing the same game but in my opinion stronger.

-bolts + stalkers is cock diesel as fuck. nuff said.

-no green means tombstalker is immune to submerge. Meanwhile perish is mostly a 1 sided wrath.

-speaking of perish, post board the deck brings in 3 one sided wraths plus 2 free removal against every relevant deck packing green.

-thought scour is a blue dark ritual that cantrips while feeding 3 stalkers pitching to force and is an offensive weapon at times. 1 may be a flex spot not sure yet.

-stifle over discard because stifle is currently more powerful and flexible vs 3-4 discard, plus its blue and just as importantly instant speed. This is not the primary plan like RUG but allows for 11 aggressive 1 drops in the opener and protects stalker vs terminus etc. Basically sheer versatility and offensive potential vs more clunky topdeck of late discards.

-geese and clique in the board because most times I want stalkers except against control.

-no grave hate other than inherent ability main and a few functional overlap cards is the main downside. My main lament is actually that I really want library but doing so weakens decays by opening up the manabase to wasteland early.

So thoughts? Input?

[apple713]

Ive been a fan of the 'tapout' method since it was innovated and its still very powerful but recently with the printing of DRS ive done a rethink. Stifle is a very powerful card and its value is directly effected by the curve of the deck and especially the CC of your threats among other things (like how many sorcerys vs instants etc).

Ive been brewing and testing what I consider to be the new face of TA, although many will say it is grixis but I feel it is still TA at heart. Anyway heres what ive been using and its been insane so far, ive been calling it the anti thresh:

4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
3 tombstalker

4 force of will
4 daze
3 stifle

4 bolt
2 decay

2 liliana

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour (possibly flex spots)

2 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
4 underground sea
4 wasteland
2 badlands
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island

SB
1 fire covenant
2 perish
2 dread of night
2 submerge
2 mongoose
1 clique
2 REB
2 gilded drake
1 reanimate

Ive ditched goyf dont miss him. The deck packs 11 evasive threats and nearly identical curve to RUG with bigger bombs.

Heres a few noteworthy things/synergies about the deck that may or may not be apparent at first glance:

-manabase is just as sturdy as traditional TA often sturdier since it only wants green for decay and all threats/counters/cantrips are U/B.

-it focuses on bettering its main wincons and beating RUG and green based aggro decks. 11 threats makes delver flips what they should be and all evasive creature suite avoids ground stalls common to goyf and RUG in general. This deck gives RUG fits btw by basically playing the same game but in my opinion stronger.

-bolts + stalkers is cock diesel as fuck. nuff said.

-no green means tombstalker is immune to submerge. Meanwhile perish is mostly a 1 sided wrath.

-speaking of perish, post board the deck brings in 3 one sided wraths plus 2 free removal against every relevant deck packing green.

-thought scour is a blue dark ritual that cantrips while feeding 3 stalkers pitching to force and is an offensive weapon at times. 1 may be a flex spot not sure yet.

-stifle over discard because stifle is currently more powerful and flexible vs 3-4 discard, plus its blue and just as importantly instant speed. This is not the primary plan like RUG but allows for 11 aggressive 1 drops in the opener and protects stalker vs terminus etc. Basically sheer versatility and offensive potential vs more clunky topdeck of late discards.

-geese and clique in the board because most times I want stalkers except against control.

-no grave hate other than inherent ability main and a few functional overlap cards is the main downside. My main lament is actually that I really want library but doing so weakens decays by opening up the manabase to wasteland early.

So thoughts? Input?

Submerge is a sideboard card so really you only have to worry about it against blue matchups and in g2-3. if you wanted to run 1 forest type land it wouldnt kill you and you could choose not to fetch it g2-3.

Sylvan library is really that good. Unfortunatly Bob is awkward with tombstalker or I'd suggest that. You may even consider 1 SDT

Is bolt really necessary its all your splashing red for?

Generic lists have run sinkhole, hymn to tourach, snapcaster mage but It seems like you have already considered them.

Also, it may sound crazy but FOW might not be necessary. The awesomeness that is blue is that people automatically assume you have it and may holdoff casting something just because you are holding cards in your hand. You dont have to cast FOW for them to play around it. It's mainly card disadvantage anyways but if your meta is heavy combo i could see it being an auto include.

[Tombstalker]

Submerge is a sideboard card so really you only have to worry about it against blue matchups and in g2-3. if you wanted to run 1 forest type land it wouldnt kill you and you could choose not to fetch it g2-3.

This is true but 3-4 from the board are powerful enough to swing games alone so its worth designing against since its RUGs main out against resolved goyfs/stalkers.

Sylvan library is really that good. Unfortunatly Bob is awkward with tombstalker or I'd suggest that. You may even consider 1 SDT

Again I completely agree I absolutely adore library. Problem is not only that its green but I forgot to mention I also intentionally avoided cc2 cards to blank snare so this would be a huge bullseye for snare.

Is bolt really necessary its all your splashing red for?

Im not entirely sure and I dont think anyone else is either atm. Its very very good with this creature suite and solves TAs historical issues of 1st turn spot removal and plainswalkers. The trade off is really just 4 goyfs for 4 bolts + red sideboard options [for me I lose library as well] but yes in short I think its worth it.
Goyf is still amazing and if playing geese then hes still the best nilla beater but with black and stalker I think not. Not since shaman and decay.

Generic lists have run sinkhole, hymn to tourach, snapcaster mage but It seems like you have already considered them.

Ive ran all 3 in the past and the only one I really lament losing [at times] is hymn.. when its good that is. It might find its way in as a 2-of though since there are a few flex spots.

Also, it may sound crazy but FOW might not be necessary. The awesomeness that is blue is that people automatically assume you have it and may holdoff casting something just because you are holding cards in your hand. You dont have to cast FOW for them to play around it. It's mainly card disadvantage anyways but if your meta is heavy combo i could see it being an auto include. .

Once again I think you make a good observation and one that ive considered many times. The main factors I have with full set of FoW is that 1. it protects stalker and a safe stalker almost always = win; and 2. what do I replace it with? Pierce maybe flusterstorm? Snare isnt needed since we run decay and dont really fear cc2 spells as much as RUG does, at least in my experience with the decks although im a little behind atm since I returned to find DRS and decays innovated.

[CroSS.24]

This is a list I've been tinkering with for awhile now. I have had much success at local tournaments, haven't really had a chance to test at a big event yet.



4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tombstalker
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Stifle
3 Sinkhole

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta


I have had some very good success with this list.
I have been able to land screw agro loam and lands, which I am very proud of.
I have not encountered a "bad" matchup yet.

And no I have not killed myself with dark confidant yet. I have been very, very, very close to it, like when I played 3 dark confidants against high tide.

[apistat_commander]

I am not a huge fan of Sinkhole, Confidant, or splashing a 4th color. I think that you just have to find a hole in the metagame and abuse it. Basically, you have to have a pretty good reason to be running Delver outside of RUG.

Our strengths:
- We get to play Deathrite Shaman without our mana becoming awful
- We have access to actual removal spells pre- and post-board, meaning we have a fighting chance against fair creature decks
- 20 lands + 4 mana dudes means fewer hands that are constricted by mana.
- Tombstalker is awesome against tempo and other creature based strategies

Our weaknesses:
- We don't get to run Lightning Bolt. Basically all of our removal is a blank against most combo decks.
- Delver doesn't flip as reliably and we are just generally a worse Delver deck (higher curve, no direct damage)
- Tombstalker/DRS and Nimble Mongoose don't play nicely together meaning that we don't get a 1 mana shrouded 3/3 against control decks
- We have more intense mana requirements and a higher curve than RUG so we can get stuck with uncastable spells
- RUG gets to run ~4 extra counters

So we are stronger against creature based strategies while sacrificing some percentage against combo and control. I think the best approach to building the deck takes into account our strengths while trying to mitigate our weaknesses.

- I think this makes Stifle superior to Hymn at the moment. Hymn was really the card that turned the deck into tap out control. Stifle gives us an edge against greedy fair decks, ups the blue count, and shores up combo to a degree. It also means that we don't tap out as much which is relevant post-board when you want to bring in 1 mana counters.
- The 4 Delver/4 DRS/4 Goyf/2 Tombstalker set up seems like the best creature suite. Tombstalker may suck against combo, but I run a pair of Vendilion Cliques in the board so that I can swap them out against combo/decks with StP.
- I think 6 MD removal spells is probably the right number. I am trying 4 Decay/1 Dismember/1 Disfigure at the moment.

Anyway, this all leads me this list:

Land(20):
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures(14):
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Tombstalker

Instants(22):
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
1x Disfigure

Sorceries(4):
4x Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Deathmark
2 Engineered Plague
1 Infest
1 Krosan Grip

[kingsey]

Just took first at a local with my list.

Stifle was huge all night. I know this deck doesn't like to tap out, but being able to hymn on turn two and keep DRS up for either a quick 2 dmg EOT or to stifle is sweet.

[Griselpuff]

Hymn is just awesome right now. Stifle is good, but with so many DRS decks, it has lost its luster. Here's a list the list that I've been playtesting:

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/55514

SB could use some work, but the MD is pretty great

[Barbed Blightning]

Hymn is just awesome right now. Stifle is good, but with so many DRS decks, it has lost its luster.

I think you got your cards mixed up there, chief; stifle is spectacular because of the DRS decks

[Griselpuff]

You stifle their land, they get to drs for mana regardless...

[mosaic]

You stifle their land, they get to drs for mana regardless...

Well I believe that BB meant something different rather then stifle land while opponent has DRS in play... and even DRS's abilities could be valid targets and game turning.

Though I don't like stifle MD with hymn much, even that from time to time I find myself in situation of having DRS and two lands with hymn in hand on my second turn, where stifle would be nice. For now I have it in side instead of sinkholes, as I am convinced that stifle is more flexible then sinkhole.