The format is completely ripe for the picking from good ol' Pyroclasm it's not even funny. I was thinking what type of deck I'd want to run, maybe some sort of RUG Control deck, but Miracles is also in a sweet spot, so to speak, to adapt to the changing format.
Any deck running Thalia, Teeg, Revokers, etc. is going to be hard to win against since all of our main threats cost more than 4 or have X in the casting cost. That's just the way it is. If you don't want to lose to Thalia.deck, running the black version might be prudent. Why? Thoughtseize to grab Teeg early on, then run 4 Dread of Night in the board. If you're really worried, that's how you run that gameplan, if you're so worried/have a hostile metagame. I blew through several tournaments X-O-Y without encountering Maverick, then got nutkicked in 2 games by a derdly Maverick player. Dark Depths combo is also a thing that we struggle against if you don't have the Swords, your Top is Needled, and your Karakas got Wastelanded.
I think in a meta with more blue and combo, and especially more Tempo, I'd want the Red Splash. Maybe it's better, maybe it's just personal preference. Against Combo in general, you just run 1-2 Cannonist and I have the Tutors to fetch them. That's usually game over. Flusterstorm also helps. Against OmniTell, running Red Elemental Blast really helps as well.
The red splash is also better against Delver Tempo decks. Pyroclasm blows out whatever arrangement you're facing, whether it be Geists and Delvers, or the most Nimble of Mongeese and Delvers. Pyroclasm cleans up most of the format, including Deathrite, Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, and a few other cards when Rest in Peace is out.
Blood Moon also combats all the 3 and 4 colour decks running few basics. It also combats the Dark Depths combo out of a few decks, and helps against the Punishing Fires gameplan of some decks. It's just really good right now.
Black has its advantages. Notion Thief, Dread of Night, Thoughtseize, Engineered Plague, etc. all have lots of value against the decks in the format as well. I just don't know if they're AS good or BETTER for a general, open meta. The decision is of course much easier if you what decks are present and in what number.
-Matt
Pyroclasm doesn't do much against BUG. I once resolved RiP and I just nuked the board with mass removal, BUG climbed right back when it resolves a Jace or Ancestral Vision or a Shardless. Yes, Pyroclasm cleans up all those creatures, so does Termius and Supreme Verdict. In this match-up, Pyroclasm doesn't offer more, it actually offers less since you can do the same with just traditional W and U, why make yourself more vulnerable to wasteland by using a 3rd color just for Pyroclasm in this match-up?Originally Posted by sdematt
The best justification to run Red against BUG is the blasts against Jace/Vision and Blood Moon against its Mana base. Even then, I've heard too many reports stating Blood Moon is too difficult to make an impact. The earlier you resolve Blood Moon, more powerful it would get. Yet, since most lists only have 1 Blood Moon, it's even harder to resolve it early. Even if you do get to play it early, you pretty much lock yourself from Top-Breaking Fetch to shuffle.
Remember that blow-out captured on SCG: Notion Thief in response to BUG's Jace brainstorm, find a StP from the stolen brainstorm, remove BUG's blocker and kill BUG's Jace on your own turn? Arguably, that's a better hoser than Pyroclasm.
Problem with the third color in general is that you never want to start by fetching a dual land, especially if you know you're facing a Wasteland deck. The black splash seems worse in that regards, at least if you're plan is to play Thoughtseize on turn 1. Although, I'm doubtful you would even want Thoughtseize in those matchups.
Hard to imagine Notion Thief being a better blow-out than Blood Moon. Both are high-variance, but Blood Moon is cheaper, and they need to have a Deathrite Shaman in play or they have to just scoop. I suppose a resolved Jace could ultimate, or something, but otherwise them not being able to cast spells should just about do it.
When I saw a solid finish for a u/w miracles deck last weekend at the scg open, I was excited to dust off the counterbalances and try it out at my local. Here is what I wound up running to a record of 5-0-1 at last nights tournament (roughly 20 players, 4 rounds swiss, cutting to top 8). I've been following this site since I returned to magic about a year ago, but I had to create a new login to post.
// uw miracles \\
3 snapcaster mage
3 stoneforge mystic
4 top
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
3 force of will
2 counterspell
1 batterskull
1 detention sphere
1 explosives
3 jace
3 terminus
2 entreat
1 mishras
1 ruins
1 karakas
2 tundra
2 volcanic
4 flooded strand
3 arid mesa
2 scalding tarn
5 island
2 plains
// sb \\
2 supreme verdict
3 pyroblast
2 clique
1 venser
1 elspeth
1 tutor
1 blood moon
1 o ring
1 wear/tear
1 feast/famine
1 rest in peace
Up to this point my experience with the deck had always been rip/helm, 3 legend build but I wanted to try out the sfm package because I know my local meta is mostly delver decks (at least 25% of the field) so I wanted access to batterskull/soff. turned out to be a pretty good choice and the deck performed very well even through some sketchy plays due to my performance 'rust'- I hadn't played much more than 15 games the past 2 weeks due to life obligations.
I basically took Steve Wise's list and made very few changes. His list was 61 with 22 land so I first cut the elspeth to trim it to 60. My next change was cutting a force of will for a mishra's factory and swapping a tundra for a karakas. I wanted 23 land in order to ensure I can verdict on time, as well as not NEED to top for lands the first couple of turns - which matters in a fairly quick matchup.
sideboard was pretty much the same, but I had the elspeth over the 2nd tutor. I was debating with myself on the drive to the shop whether I wanted GoST and/or meddling mage on the side. I decided the clique was fine vs combo over GoST and I couldnt really think of what to cut
this was what I would have used in a more combo/midrange environment:
2 geist
3 meddling mage
1 venser
2 pyroblast
2 supreme verdict
1 pithing needle
1 blood moon
1 tutor
1 rest in peace
1 feast/famine
Anyway, I signed up got ready for round 1. I forgot to write down my opponents name, but I have notes from each match and my sideboard strategy.
Round 1: RUG Delver
G1-
I win the die roll, and open g1 with a top into cb but have to fow to protect it. I get pretty low from a delver and mongoose but I manage to rip a terminus on time and he could never resolve anything.
SB: In: 1 soff, 2 supreme, 1 tutor, 1 blood moon, 1 rip, 1 venser, 1 o.ring
Out: 3 force, 3 counterbalance, 2 counterspell
I decided that since I was on the draw, counterbalance might just be too slow and I just wanted all the answers to his creatures, and better access to those answers.
G2-
He opens with 2 consecutive delver flips and is beating my down pretty fast but taps out to play a tarmogoyf. this gives me a chance to dig up my EE with a tutor and deal with both the flipped guys and I go down to 4 before I can plow his goyf and stabilize. It's important to note this game that I almost killed myself by cracking a fetchland in order to equip my batterskull to a snapcaster. Luckily I drew an island and didnt have to, and he wound up having to use his last card to bolt my snapcaster. he whiffed and drew some useless dazes and I evenetually get venser suited up to take me out of red. I was surprised to see he kept lightning bolt in but it almost worked.
1-0, 2-0
Round 2: Mono red burn - goblin guides, lavamancer, 1 million lava spikes.
G1-
I won the die roll again, I plow his t1 goblin guide. Then I drop a T2 counterbalance and blind flip a top on his t2 lavamancer. He never came back.
SB: -1 force, +1 tutor.
G2-
I resolve another early CB and this, combined with 2 brainstorms is ultimately enough to protect my life total. I get a t5-6 batterskull and top into a terminus to counter his desperation fireblast (which wouldnt have really mattered anyway)
2-0, 4-0
Round 3: UWR Delver
Lost the die roll, and it hurt.
G1-
He opens with the typical delver > wasteland >stifle. then follows up with a stoneforge a few turns into it. I wasnt even in this one at all.
SB: In: In: 2 supreme, 1 tutor, 1 blood moon, 1 venser, 1 o.ring, 1 wear/tear, 1 espeth
Out: 3 force, 3 counterbalance, 2 counterspell
similar strat as rug delver, only no color hoser or gy hate, we add wear/tear and an elspeth if it gets grindy.
G2-
I have top on the play and my opponent stumbles at 1 mana after 2 brainstorms. I had to waste 3 swords to plowshares trying to kill a delver. eventually it would get pretty grindy with both of us at 13 or so life, but i resolve a jace which pulls me out ahead after a few turns.
G3-
he opens with a pretty much nut. delver, sfm, geist. I take a beating and go down to 7 before I can supreme verdict and sort of reset. He draws a bunch of lands and eventually casts batterskull. I top deck my own and am even able to plow his germ. we stare at eachother for a few turns trading batterskull hits until i eventually draw an entreat for 4. i wind up finishing him in turns. after that match, I thought i should have brought my soff in so I could gain evasion and protection in the batterskull v batterskull
3-0, 6-1
ID into top 8 3-0-1
top 8: maverick with no black? hatebears, im not sure.
G1-
this guy was a regular and had been playing his deck forever. It was a horde of 2/2s at 2 mana with GSZs and vials, basically a swarming strategy. He developed a great board position, and he tapped out for GSZ to fetch gaddock teeg. I plow at end of turn and then miracle terminus into entreat.
SB: In: 2 supreme verdict, 1 venser, 1 blood moon, 1 wear/tear, 1 tutor
Out: 3 force, 2 counterspell, 1 counterbalance
G2-
He vials out a bunch of guys which include scavenging ooze, stoneforge, thalia, gaddock teeg while i stumble on making land drops. I am 1 mana short of plow teeg, brainstorm into terminus on his upkeep. ah well.
G3-
I open top into one of the cbs left in the deck. he hits another early thalia, but its not as spectacular on the draw. I work around it and he mistakenly attacks into a mishra's with his 2/2. this factory would be enough to prevent him from attacking me for several turns while he build an army. I verdict 3 of his guys and he topdecks vial, land, land, vial.
4-0-1, 8-2-2
top4: Jund
G1-
He gets a deathrite and starts going to pound down with a combination of hymns, decays, thoughtseize, liliana. I feel like i did nothing but the game seemed to take a while.
SB: In: 1 blood moon, 1 o ring
G2-
this matchup seems really bad for me. he opens deathrite and i plow, then he passes on turn 2, so im thinking great, here comes the decay... i just drop a land and decide not to play anything. he then plays liliana and makes us discard, but taps out. I slam blood moon and then the following turn I d. sphere lili. he cant recover and admits to having no bolts, lavamancers, or outs to blood moon.
G3-
I get an early top and we are trading blows, he isnt drawing much discard, so we are doing well. he manages a pretty solid board, but i set up an entreat for 4 which overwhelms him quickly, though he does decay 2 of them. He said that he had a maelstrom pulse in there but never saw it.
5-0-1, 10-3-2
Top2-
it was late, so my friend and I split the prize and went home. Each person that top8s gets a pack as well and I opened a Garruk, caller of beasts so that was a pretty sweet bonus.
I really enjoyed the deck overall, and I have a lot of notes to make tweaks going forward. I definitely like the sideboard, but I sort of want to work leyline of sanctity in their because the discards can be a killer. If I saw any of the shardless decks I imagine staring down many free hymns would not be fun. Ill be working on it the next few nights and mainly testing with my friends who pilot rug delver, shardless, and stoneblade variants.
About the sfm package: I think its overall very strong vs creature decks, and even the midrange to some extent. while i do like the rip version a lot vs the field, the sfm gave me another angle of attack which was great, and sometimes it allowed me to set up some sweet plays. even casting sfm on turn 2 and it getting killed by something is often enough of an incremental gain that it will keep you in the game long enough to take over. playing batterskull lets you use your health as more of a resource and is certainly more reliable than going for the combo kill. plus, decay can really be a bitch if you rely on rip to close the game.
I never saw combo, but I think leylines would be good in that matchup as well.
Am I the only one greedily playing UWrb? (I know I'm the only one crazy enough to run a maindeck Sphinx's Revelation, card has been nuts though)
Crazy you say that, on my drive to work I was considering more draw engines. Intuition/AK, going back to the ol' predict. I think I might try 1x sphinx and see what happens. I often find myself hitting 6-7 land when I make it to the late game.
not really. typically I dont really have a problem hitting my first 4-5 land drops. then if the game continues, say, 5 more turns ill probably be able to cast it. I was just saying i'd give it a shot and see if it works thats all
I was obviously trolling. Yeah obviously this card is insane when you got quite a lot of lands and stuff. But then we are winning anyways. Plus we got a lot of taxingcounters in this format, which devalidates the card even more. It's just a Win-More card for me - as it does have no Underload (opposite of Overload) - Mode... so I don't really think this is viable at all...
Greetings
I barely took first place at a local tournament by timing R2 against Shardless BUG. I would have lost if it wasn't for time (Tripple AV G1 and Tripple Hymn by T3 on G3). I managed to win G2 by overloading my opponent with Decay targets (RiP, CB, and Shackles). When it came to sideboarding I was faced with a dilemma: Pierce for Hymn or REB for all the rest. I think REB are clearly superior but I couldn't use them effectively without a basic Mountain. I would have also loved to have some Pyroclasms for that matchup but I prefer not to rely on a red card for creature matchups without a basic Mountain because they tend to pack Wastelands. In the end, I went:
2-0 vs. homebrew GW aggro/control
1-1-1 vs. Shardless BUG
2-1 vs. Grixis Pyromancer
2-0 vs. Nic Fit
I feel like Pyroclasm + RiP + REB is the right approach to beating Shardless BUG and that REB could really help in the RUG matchup if you have access to a basic Mountain. Shackles were great every time I had them.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Correct. Wasteland is the bane of my existence.
-Matt
Last week there was a tournament at Knight-Ware. Here are the decklists: http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic...013legacy.html
We had 4 Miracles deck place in the top 9 of the tournament and oarsman/Joe took down the entire tournament.
Decklists varied: I ran the RiP/Helm list that got 5th, Joe ran his traditional list, Danny Batterman ran a 4 Entreat/0 Terminus list that got 6th, and the 9th place list was Esper Miracles.
I played:
1. Sneak and Show with a Black splash (W, 2-0) (Game 1 I took a turn 2 Emrakul hit from Sneak Attack and still won with 1 life remaining. Scary game...)
2. Death and Taxes (D, 1-1-1)
3. Deathblade (W, 2-0)
4. Patriot (W, 2-0)
5. UWr Miracles (against Joe!, W 2-0)
6. Drew into top 8.
I then got stomped in two games against Joe again in the mirror rematch. One interesting thing to note is that I was on the play G2 and after his turn 2, I ET'd for a Blood Moon locked him out of most of his hand. He took the game in the end behind Top and a huge Entreat that he paid for by raw dogging both basic Plains, but Blood Moon did a great job regardless in giving me a huge advantage I couldn't capitalize on.
Here is a video of my recent version of Punishing Miracles vs ANT on modo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkzz3U7h4_w
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
EDIT: Answered my own question.
-ABC
Quick question for those of you siding Elspeth, Knight-Errant. When do you side her in? I've been siding her vs control mirrors and keeping her out vs most Stoneforge Mystic decks, but honestly haven't seen her in action much and my sample size is rather small. What does everyone here think of the card and how it performs?
This happened in the first SCG open after the new rules. It was pretty funny to watch.
I've been fairly successful against both. Playing more basics than most other decks in the format and fetching for them first means the mana-denial section of their strategy is more or less blanked. Aside from that, hold your removal spells for the most relevant creatures.
Counterbalance can counter the majority of their threats. Yes, they're playing abrupt decay, but I've found that I usually have more targets than they have Decays. Abrupt Decay on Counterbalance isn't so great when I have E Field combo active and vice versa.
~~~~~
I'll post my list and a report later, but RiP mainboard has been amazing thus far. I've had two matches in the last two tournaments where turn 2 RiP ends their deck (dredge and reanimator) and RUG is severely set back by it.
The aggro matchups have been great. I've been hiding behind "walls" sculpting my hand. Energy Field, even if RiP doesn't make it into play, will buy you several turns in an aggro matchup, just be sure to fetch basics beforehand so they can't crack Field with a wasteland. RiP acts as another such "wall" against RUG. Save your STPs for their Delver, it's the only threat that isn't [almost] blanked by RiP
Comes in against fair decks to increase threat count, deal with opposing creatures / Liliana / Jace. Usually only when FoW is coming out. Usually quite good vs stoneforge.
Honestly, wish I had more to say about Miracles at the moment... I'm still playing it as my main go-to (RIP version) and haven't really updated it much recently. I really liked going back up to 23 land and 2 Entreats main, with a 3rd in the SB. Not much else to say really...
Hello everybody, i really don't understand why everybody is playing the RiP version of the deck, in which matchup does it helps? i tested it out a bit but i felt it like a pile of doing-nothings and i think it mulligans really bad in comparison to the standard version, than the combo and control matchups imho get worse.
Am i missing something?
I usually play this list for the standard version:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Wear_Tear
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Terminus
I've been grinding with this on modo for a while now... I really like it. I guess most lists are about the same but I just wanted to point out how much I like Predict and Vedalken Shackles and would like your opinion too (Im biased towards those cards) :)
Without snapcaster mage, shardless agent, manlands or bloodbraid elf we are sometimes forced to burn a plow on something bad or play Terminus for little value, perhaps just to keep Jace Alive for a turn. Shackles solves that. Decay can be painful but I think it's worth it. Vedalken Shackles is why I run a whooping three volcanics and no basic mountain. There are also no ruins/karakas.
Predict is just ancestral recall vs anything but tempo (where it might require to much setup). The deck has so many bad cards g1 and Predict can also be like brainstorm 5-6. I like it over Ponder right now but cases can be made for both. It does not put more pressure on SDT like I first thought. Between jace, brainstorm and blindflips from CB I get to use it for good measure. Sometimes you can ruin someones tutor, sdt-drawing a card or just draw 2 when your opponent flips a delver.
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (6)
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
INSTANTS (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
LANDS (22)
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
5 Island
SIDEBOARD
1 Wear // Tear
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
I don't really like blood moon with Vedalken shackles but It's our best shot versus 12post and sometimes just win straight up vs I.E Jund.
Other things that might stand out;
No creatures maindeck. Without a critical mass of dorks I think there is no reason to run STP-targets G1. I miss clique a bit from time to time.
Spell Snare over Spell Pierce. Im still not convinced about Spell Pierce.
Grafdigger's cage over relic of progenitus. Stops GSZ and NO
Im pretty happy with maindeck but Im trying to get Pyroclasm or baneslayer angel in there to up my % versus aggro/swarm. Im also thinking about Det sphere or O-ring as I do run 1 E.tutor. Is it worth it versus show and tell? Isn't it just better to be 100% focused on not letting it resolve? Outside of the show and tell matchup I can hardly think of any situation where Im "happy" resolving a 3 mana removal. It's a catch all for Choke, needle and the like so Im not sure. I could cut Wear/tear for it. Thoughts?
Im something like ~30-3 in games and my losses have been to Jund and Esperblade. Lingering souls is a problem but I don't think it's common enough to warrant an inclusion of sulfur elemental in the board. Still good vs DnT but less flexible than i.e Pyroclasm.
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