So for the SFM builds, is 4 Tundra 3 Volcanic Island the correct land distribution? I've been contemplating -1 Tundra +1 Plateau, but I haven't been able to test it.
My friend runs an aggro version of this and cuts the tempo out. I think this might be the better approach to the deck.
Change swords to paths. No more life gain and since not worrying about tempo, the extra land won't hurt as much.
Cut the wastes for more consistent manna to get 3cc geist.
Then lightning helix and snaps for additional reach and removal for geist.
Tempo shell just felt too clunky and contradicting what it wants to do. Any thoughts?
Hi,Originally Posted by fired88
Could you please post the aggro list that your friend played ? Thanks, I'm curious.
Hi everyone, I'm new to this thread, i just finished the deck (before that, I mostly played Merfolk. Then i got sick for not having removal spells !). The deck feels great, can answer almost any threats.
I played at a local tournament this week-end between friends (nothing competitive). I tried the SFM build recently brought by Eric Smith at the Invitational (the only difference is that I played one Vendilion Clique over the 3rd Geist), and it worked out pretty well.
First, i playtested the original version with the 3 Geist, the Clique and some Snapcaster. But since my metagame is aggro-oriented (Elves, while being more of a combo-deck, still relies on creatures obvioulsy), i went for the SFM build. I fought against Elves, Pox, MUD, U/R Burn (packing the Young Pyromancer) and a B/G rogue. I finished 2nd with 3 victories (U/R Burn, MUD and Rogue) - 1 draw (Elves) - 1 defeat (POX), totalising 8-4.
Regarding the SFM, every time i drew it, it was either a kill, or a game savior. Batterskull was amazing (nothing new) since it gave me that mid-late game fuel that i was unable to reach with the original list. Having the batterskull as a blocker hallowed the delver and the clique to only focus on attacking (wich is kind of nice since... well... they can't block many things without die at the same time).
But, playing the SFM package over more Geist and Snap/Clique has decreased the tempo-perspective of the deck IMO. Unless i'm not playing this build right (which is possible), my matchs looked more like mid-range than tempo (unless I had the chance to put a delver on turn 1 while holding a daze and some nice other cards). I don't see it as a disavantage, but it clearly change the way to play the deck. I didn't wanted to try the turn 2 - SFM since I always wanted to keep one more mana to be able to answer during my opponent turn for casting a spellpierce, or dealing with the next drop.
As for the Geist, he didn't had the chance to shine this week-end ; too bad. While I agree with Vedalken when he is saying that the Geist is sometime almost useless when the opponent has too many blockers or that he is himself no blocker-material, I still wouldn't completely cut him. The simple fact that he has hexproof justify his presence. With all the removals like Bolt, STP/PTE and Abrupt Decay, the delver-clique threats aren't enough (at least in my metagame). Even with spell pierce-daze-FOW in the list, i was unable to protect them the entire game. If you look at the RUG deck ; they have the mangoose, and she can win some games by herself if the RUG player is able to deal with most of the drops (unless some Relic Of Progenitus or RIP hits the board...). I really think that the Geist needs to stay in this deck, whether it's SFM oriented or not.
Last edited by Spaker; 08-12-2013 at 04:35 PM.
hey guys, new on thread but i always come here to see lists and thoughts on American Delver.
now with that SFM build, seeing some reports saying that these decklists dont fit the Tempo playstyle, i think that is worth to remove the Stifle gameplay, keeping the Wastelands, to improve the CA with more cantrips or improve our combo match-up pre-board with more counters.
i thought something like this:
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
3 Spell pierce
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
What you guys think about it?
Hi,
I like your idea, but I'm not sure about cutting the stifle plan, mostly because cutting 4 stifle would significantly decrease the power of the 4 daze/4 wasteland the list is packing. Being able to stifle a fetch and deprive your opponent of another mana is, by far, the best way to make your daze stay an efficient counterspell for the 4-5 turns. That said, with the presence of Deathrite Shaman, stifle is indeed less effective in a mana-denial plan. But since the deck contains 7 removal spells (8 for the one which runs 4 Swords To Plowshares), death rite shaman doens't automatically screw the mana-denial plan.
Even with the 4 stifle, I believe that the MU against combo remains good. Running 3 FOW, 2 Spellpierce and 4 daze seems still pretty decent (and I think that you can stifle the Storm trigger of Tendrils of Agony).
IMO, if you really want to get rid of the stifle, you maybe would want to rearrange the manabase, since stifle is also here to prevent Wasteland on our own dual-land that allow the deck to respond quickly, given the right lands, to any threats. In that perspective, running more basic lands could be a solution, as you suggested it with the island in your list.
While loosing some tempo with the SFM, the deck can still put early pressure on the opponent (thanks to Delver/daze/stifle/wasteland) and go for the tempo playstyle that it was first designed for.
What do you think ?
If any of you guys is interested, I wrote a personal analysis on this deck on an italian high-profile MTG website:
here.
(Just use google translator or Babelfish, it should convey most of the meaning.)
Basically, as soon as I saw the deck in action and its most recent successes I predicted that UWr Delver's inherent flaw is that it aims to play in the same shell Threshold uses, with the little yet enormous difference that its beatstick costs 3 instead of 1 or 2, consequently shifting all Stifle and Wasteland timings as it often happens. I suggested to try to push the deck towards a more midrange-esque panorama because that's where Geist (and Mystic) can shine by either cutting down the Geists or removing entirely the Stifle package to push more Spell Snares/cantrips/creatures, and the latest tendencies seem to proof this feeling.
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Hi,
Indeed, it seems the deck is kind of the middle of two strategics gameplays :
On one hand, it follows the tracks of the best tempo deck out there for quite a while now (RUG Delver, obviously) but can't keep the same rythm because of the 3 mana needed for the geist (where the mangoose only need... 1 green mana.)
Still, the UWR Delver is totally capable of doing a great full-tempo job with a flipped delver on turn 2 and some wasteland/stifle/bolt/daze/brainstorm/fetch in hand. (That hand can happen... sometimes...).
On the other hand, his own tempo (the major threat costing 3 mana) can sometimes become more close to a mid-range zone.
The recent list of E. Smith (played by Fabiano at the last invitational) is packing Stoneforge Mystic for this kind of situation I think.
At this point, the deck isn't always able to reach the 3 or 4 mana fast enough to keep on early pressure and still aiming the tempo style.
This duality between being a heavier tempo-deck and a light mid-range deck builds his difficulty, but also his identity.
Like Piceli89 wrote in his article (thank you by the way, very interesting), I played several games where, at some point, you'll be facing the choice of tapping out for a geist, leaving you unable to respond during your opponent's turn (unless you've got daze or FOW), or wait one more turn and try to put another land to reach the 4 manas where you can in the same turn land a threat (Geist) and still keep single mana for a Bolt/STP/Stifle/Pierce etc. That choice can be pretty hard, and can compromise the tempo-clock you're trying to put.
As for a stronger mid-range build, I would like to mention this other deck. Before playing the Delver-build, i followed the list that A. Petersen played at the GP Strasbourg in April ;
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=77698
I discovered it through an article of C. Durward on the Channel Fireball site ; he was analyzing the metagame and the performance of decks like Miracle or Maverick and mentionned this "new" deck named "Geistill". This version is not Delver-based, and removes the whole stifle/daze/wasteland package, anchoring the deck deeply into the mid-range area. Everything stand in the title ; the deck focuses almost exclusively on landing a Geist of Saint Traft, and uses the Standstill-Mishra's Factory as a draw engine. The deck deals with the drops of the opponent in the first 3-4 turns with the removal package and the spellpierce/FOW counters. If possible, it wants to land a standstill holding a mishra in hand, or already on the battlefield ; that way, if the other player doesn't have manland or too few wasteland, he will be forced to make you draw 3, which gives you enough fuel in order to control what your opponent is trying to establish. Then, when the board is empty, the Geist is on his way to victory (that is the ideal scenario, of course).
As opposed to UWR Delver, this Geistill is the perfect shell for the Geist and for the Snapcaster. Plenty of mana, a strong kill, helped by the standard-blue counterspell/cantrips, and the best removals-spells like Bolt and STP. The mid-range is where you want to go.
I'm not saying it's a viable option, but i really found it interesting as it uses the Geist at his best potential.
I was thinking about going away from the midrange and keep it closer to it's speedy UR Delver roots while using white as more of a splash. One of the things that always frustrated me in the UR Delver is how the Goblin Guide got chumped so quickly and easily. The white splash gives more removal and allows Guide and Ghast to get in fast. The deck is made to be a fair deck that beats other fair decks with speed and cheap, recurring removal. The sideboard is transitional against unfair combo decks by boarding out Guide, Path and Price and boarding in the taxing counters. And I am letting Snapcaster shine a bit more with the Young Pyromancer as well.
URw Delver
4x Delver Of Secrets
4x Goblin Guide
4x Young Pyromancer
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Geist of St Traff
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Chain Lightning
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Force of Will
4x Path to Exile
2x Price of Progress
4x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
2x Flooded Strand
1x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Surgical Extraction
I like the Ensnare tech David Gearhart and his teammates used in an aggressive UWR Delver deck last year: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...with_davi.html
You play it EOT (or during your opponent's upkeep if you fear he is going to attack you), it generates an Elemental Token thanks to Young Pyromancer, and you can then attack with all your tokens while all his blockers are tapped.
It also returns lands to your hand, which is good to trigger landfall for Steppe Lynx, if you play it :)
I also like Boros Charm in such a deck. It can save your creatures and tokens from board wipes, make a blocked Geist indestructible, or just deal 4 damage to your opponent to finish him...
After a bit more testing I have determined that this version probably needs +1Geist -1Young Pyromancer, and possibly +1Snapcaster and -1Lavamancer. If anything providing two new Force Targets helps a bit too. I wish I could have two Swords to Plowshares in the board but feel I may need the O-Rings in certain matchups where counters alone may not be enough.
Yeah I kinda remember seeing that Ensnare deck. Boros Charm is an interesting idea. I am a bit afraid of Chalice with this deck and no room for Shatter effects in board atm.
With 20 creatures and 18 land in this version (compared to 13 creatures and 19 land in most other recent builds) are you having any problems sitting on an Delver that won't flip?
It's not too bad with 4 Brainstorm and 3 Ponder. Perhaps lose 2 Creatures for a couple more sideboarded counters or Swords. That would make 18 Land, 24 Spells and 18 Creatures. A slightly more spelly zoo ratio. Young Pyromancer likes spells too!
Boros Charm could earn a spot as well in a more aggro build as pointed out by someone earlier. Maybe it would be time to lose the Price of Progress, which can be a little ambitious to play in a three color deck. Or maybe Chain Lightning?
Still feel like I may need to find room in the board for a couple Shattering Blow against Jitte, Batterskull and Chalice.
I liked Boros Charm in Standard, I'm not sure how much I'd like it in Legacy. Chain Lightning is prob better, though 4 to the face with a Boros is pretty fun, I'm just not sure I like having to have red and white which are such secondary colors to cast it.
Maybe like two of them. It is worth noting that the indestructibility option can be a counter vs the uncounterable Abrupt Decay.
Hey guys,
So I started playing this deck a few weeks ago and started with a list similar to Gerrard Fabiano's/Erik Smith's. I've come to realize, though, that I strongly dislike Stoneforge Mystic and Swords to Plowshares in this deck because they don't fit the tempo deck strategy. From the SCG lists I've replaced the 3 Mystics and Batterskull and Jitte for a 3rd Grim Lavamancer, 4th Geist of Saint Traft, 1 Vendilion Clique, the 4th Ponder, and a Lightning Helix. I then replaced the 3 Swords to Plowshares for a mix of other ways to deal with STP's most common target: Tarmogoyf (1 Dismember, 2 Fire/Ice).
My list for reference:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
2 Fire/Ice
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Helix
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Meddling Mage
2 Pyroblast
3 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear/Tear
I was told that it was better to be somewhat cold to Tarmogoyf game one and then just board in three Rest in Peace and 2 Submerge against the Tropical Island decks rather than run the anti-synergistic Swords to Plowshares. What do you guys think?
Hey,
Regarding the SFM : cutting it will make your aggro MU a lot more difficult, but it can clearly add some speed in other match-up like combo. I think it's a matter of personnal preference at this point. I like the 3rd grim though, mvp in many match-up, even if he can run out of gas pretty fast.
But I really don't think that removing the STP is a good choice here. I might be wrong, but replace it with dismember/fire and ice won't help against tarmo. Even the bolt isn't enough most of the time. So you'll be forced to either block + bolt (and lose one of your own creature, loosing tempo) or play 2 bolt to take it down, wich will slow you even more than make the opponent gain 5 or 6 life at best with a STP. Okay : dismember could do the job, but it stays expansive. Even outside of the tarmo/knight of the reliquary situation, I fear that other spell like Dismember and Fire//Ice are too "heavy" to fit with the same tempo you would like to keep going. Let me explain : dismember is really great (I use it in Merfolk where you don't have other solution), but beside themana, 4 life can become quite expansive in some match-up. It can be the "perfect" removal in early-game, while you're still between 15 and 20 life, but when you're facing a beatdown in mid-late game and don't have many life left, a dismember will be the last thing you'll want to draw. Fire//Ice is a great spell that could do the trick against weak-creatures, but it's also more expansive in mana, which exposes you to your opponents daze/spell pierce, and doesn't solve the tarmo issue you'll probably face.
STP, despite the lifegain drawback, is the reason the deck is so powerfull IMO. Exiling is far better than sending to graveyard obviously, with all the DRS running around in legacy. By removing it, you take the risk of a tarmo or knight beatdown in the first game, forced to wait the 2nd game to bring your gy hate. (Plus : rest in piece can be dealt with ---> abrupt decay, qasali bandemage, krosan grip etc.)
Submerge appears as a good idea since it can send the threat in the library when combined with a fetch. But without that you're just delaying the drop (which, I agree, can sometimes be enough for you to kill the opponent).
For all thoses reasons, i personnaly prefer to give some lifepoints with STP that i'll have to take back with the delver or clique than take the chance of struggling with threats bigger than 3/3, but that is just my opinion. Did you already playtested your version without SFM and STP ? Nice results ?
Would it work better if geist was cut completely? And just go with 4 SFM, 4 Delvers and 2-3 GL? Then no more complaints about 3 drops. Then we could probably drop down to a 18 land manabase like RUG.
Where does geist shine that makes him worth the 3cc curve?
He shines best in decks that don't have a lot of blockers. He is also quite good in a deck that can remove most of your creatures, as he has hexproof. I agree, it can be a hurdle to reach the 3 mana while keeping the pressure on the opponent, but I also think one finds out with time when to go for Geiast and when to use wasteland.
How do people handle Deadguy Ale? I am quite new to this deck, but I feel like I need to play defensive because I need to burn Mother of Runes and Dark Confidant. I am not sure I am doing it Right as this deck sure feels best when you want to be the offensive player.
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