[Deck] The Rock

[Claymore]

Since you're playing Therapies and Dryad Arbor, I will suggest swapping 2 Marsh Flats for 2 Windswept Heaths. Being able to fetch the Arbor is very important for firing off Therapies, and in general having 6 ways to fetch a basic Forest is very good (and often necessary). A 2 for 2 swap gives you 6 ways to access basic Forests and 6 ways to access basic Swamps, perfect for Abrupt Decay on a Blood Moon.

[Boskoo]

How important is KoR to everyone? I have been playing the following list for a few months now and most recent tournament I went 4-2 and could have easily went 5-1 if i did not make some play mistakes in the game.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

[lavafrogg]

How important is KoR to everyone? I have been playing the following list for a few months now and most recent tournament I went 4-2 and could have easily went 5-1 if i did not make some play mistakes in the game.

If you read through the thread you will see that many players have success with different versions of the deck. Popular card swaps would be knight of the reliquary for lingering souls; I myself cut knight a while ago and still miss him in many match ups.

In my opinion 1:1 removal is very high and the resilience of lingering souls is just too good to pass up (in addition to the synergy with Lilliana and stoneforge mystic).

[sdematt]

Congrats on the finishes!

If you're looking for stuff to beat the Deathrite mirrors, Scavenging Ooze is still hot tech. Eats Punishing Fires, Loams, and totally knocks out opposing Deathrite Shamans.

I need a bomb to fight other fair decks. Never really had anything THAT good to bring in I felt. Tracker? Thrun? 4th AD? Sigarda? Open to ideas here.

Which fair decks? I mean, bringing in Ooze is a beating against most other fair decks, but so is running Thrun, or, Lingering Souls. Lingering Souls just out-attritions the fair decks. Deed is also fucking snazzy. Deed on 2, leave your Knights in play, win.

4) Is Burn just bad to play against?
5) Life from the Loam was underwhelming. It helped once to recur a wasteland on a grove. It does have decent synergy with Lili, Knight, Goyf, and DRS though.
6) Krosan Grip was a baaaad choice. Should have been Vindicate, AD, or another Pulse. Maybe even a Deed.
7) Cabal Therapy is my favorite discard spell
8) Having four Knights and 4 Tarmogoyfs felt good. The games where I drew came from running either out of removal or out of threats.
9) I am adding Cabal Pit. Deathrite wars are a headache and whoever wins them generally wins the game. Cabal Pit also can help against Mirran Crusader, Mom, Bloodbraid, Bob, SFM, Goyf wars, Etched Champion, and a bunch of other stuff. I wish it had been in the board rather then EE.

Burn's an awful matchup. Them's the breaks. If you run Batterskull you might get something, or Jitte, otherwise, you're mucho boned.

Loam is another card that's more powerful in the Tempo matches or the midrange mirror to bring back Maze and such that died to Wastelands.

Grip is only good if you plan on facing OmniTell/Counterbalance all day, every day.

Deed is good against Deathrites. Cabal Pit only mucks stuff once, unless you're running and manage to hit your 1-of Loam. I will agree Crusader sucks, as does Mom.

How important is KoR to everyone? I have been playing the following list for a few months now and most recent tournament I went 4-2 and could have easily went 5-1 if i did not make some play mistakes in the game.

KotR is excellent, but not essential, and entirely metagame dependent. I like Knight since it's a threat on its own, and I feel in this deck, protecting your SFM is hard.

Lingering Souls is really bad in the unfair matchups, but that's the way it is. It can be an attrition card easily slipped into the board as a 2-of, though.


-Matt

[Claymore]

Sometimes that 1 hit off of Cabal Pit is all you need. If you want a complete Knight Gattling Gun then try out Arena in place of Maze of Ith...although I imagine that Legacy has too many Wastelands for that to work, unlike Modern.

[cartothemax]

Thanks for all of the responses everybody. Greatly appreciate the feedback.

Since you're playing Therapies and Dryad Arbor, I will suggest swapping 2 Marsh Flats for 2 Windswept Heaths. Being able to fetch the Arbor is very important for firing off Therapies, and in general having 6 ways to fetch a basic Forest is very good (and often necessary). A 2 for 2 swap gives you 6 ways to access basic Forests and 6 ways to access basic Swamps, perfect for Abrupt Decay on a Blood Moon.

Thank you! I will get those changes made as soon as possible. This happened once or twice where I had the Therapy in hand, but was stuck with a Marsh Flats and no way to fetch Arbor.

If you're looking for stuff to beat the Deathrite mirrors, Scavenging Ooze is still hot tech. Eats Punishing Fires, Loams, and totally knocks out opposing Deathrite Shamans.
...
Which fair decks? I mean, bringing in Ooze is a beating against most other fair decks, but so is running Thrun, or, Lingering Souls. Lingering Souls just out-attritions the fair decks. Deed is also fucking snazzy. Deed on 2, leave your Knights in play, win.
...
Lingering Souls is really bad in the unfair matchups, but that's the way it is. It can be an attrition card easily slipped into the board as a 2-of, though.

The fair decks that I'm thinking of are the ones I played I guess- Jund, Maverick, Deathblade, and Goblins. Maybe Death & Taxes or RUG could added to the list.

I think you are right that Ooze is the answer though. I didn't realize until my second Deathblade matchup the powerhouse that an Ooze can be. I have been undervaluing him clearly. In hindsight could have been more proactive with using him eating DRS and Snappy targets. Along with what you mentioned it also can shrink Geese, shrink Knights, disrupt Goyf, and get pretty big.

Souls is a great card. I previously ran with -KotR -Goyf -GSZ for +3 Souls. I used to linger to victory often. Finding space is the biggest challenge.

Sometimes that 1 hit off of Cabal Pit is all you need. If you want a complete Knight Gattling Gun then try out Arena in place of Maze of Ith...although I imagine that Legacy has too many Wastelands for that to work, unlike Modern.

Yeah, the 1 hit is sometimes all it takes to tip things in your favor. For Arena, that was what I was thinking of using Tracker for creating the trademarked Knight-Gattling-Gun.

I have some testing to do for the SB moving forward I think.

Cheers!

[crow_mw]

Thank you! I will get those changes made as soon as possible. This happened once or twice where I had the Therapy in hand, but was stuck with a Marsh Flats and no way to fetch Arbor.

I was certain I posted a reply, but apparently forgot to press the submit button. But you run a very similar list to mine and take a note of this - compared to almost all lists (and hence manabases) posted here you are very light on white spells. We don't run Souls, we don't run Mystics, we don't run something like Tidehollow Sculler or Elspeth. Maindeck we run only 2 white spells - Swords and Knight.

We are so white-independent that sometimes I consider dropping basic plains altogether. It is very uncommon for us to fetch them. Against mana denial knight comes very late and while it is great to cast swords, after you do it you are left with a land that does almost nothing. (As a side note I play 3 swords and 4 decays, with 4th swords in side).

On a contrary not only we want to ramp to double black but also with MD Oooze, full package of MD creatures and triple GSZ we are even more dependent on green mana, than most other lists. All in all while I still keep MD plains I think all our fetches need to be able to grab forests.

[AggroSteve]

i have to fully agree.... allthough i run 2 lingering souls MD

the shell with KotR + GSZ (and ooze) is extremely green-dependant
for me it took a bit of time realizing this when i switched to this configuration, but now i got a grip of it and it felt quite strange with a fetch in hand that was not able to either fetch a green basic, a green dual, or a dryad arbor

that was the reason i just recently switched my duals to 4 catacombs, 2 windswepth heath, 2 marsh flats (with the marsh flats still fealing strange) and it feals way better now with the mana, allthough the basic plains might be cuttable, as we allready have a karakas as well to support white mana
i may have to try this, but i would feel unconfortable knowing that i miss the non-wastable white mana source

[cartothemax]

i have to fully agree.... allthough i run 2 lingering souls MD

the shell with KotR + GSZ (and ooze) is extremely green-dependant
for me it took a bit of time realizing this when i switched to this configuration, but now i got a grip of it and it felt quite strange with a fetch in hand that was not able to either fetch a green basic, a green dual, or a dryad arbor

that was the reason i just recently switched my duals to 4 catacombs, 2 windswepth heath, 2 marsh flats (with the marsh flats still fealing strange) and it feals way better now with the mana, allthough the basic plains might be cuttable, as we allready have a karakas as well to support white mana
i may have to try this, but i would feel unconfortable knowing that i miss the non-wastable white mana source

And here I thought my manabase was the least controversial part of my list. Windswept Heath has been added in.

Knight vs Lingering Souls: Since I don't run SFM it was easier to choose to drop the souls. They are really good, but I prefer the utility of fetching lands with Knight and just how monstrous she can get.

Basic Plains: I have been tempted to cut the Plains and would almost rather it be the 4th Wasteland or a 9th fetch to help feed DRS and Knight. The two of them generally play well, but we can't always dependent on our opponents graveyard for lands. With Blood Moon in play the Plains is generally going to be as good as all of the Mountians we will have anyways. Maybe I will cut it... I do enjoy being greedy :)

Also I added Deed to my sideboard as my fair deck hoser. Setting it at two and leaving Liliana or a Knight seems pretty good. Also deed will a good a way to get out of a tight spot if I am getting overwhelmed.

[Shawon]

Taking a quick glance, since you are running at least 8 lands that don't provide black mana, you should probably up your Urborg count to 3-4 to get your colorless lands to produce .

Have you thought of Grand Abolisher? It might be a little too cost-restrictive, but you are already in white. It seems pretty useful as a security blanket to make sure Marit Lage strikes for 20 without your opponent interacting with you. What's better is that you can still activate your abilities/spells like MoM to push through blockers. Food for thought.

[Claymore]

Also I added Deed to my sideboard as my fair deck hoser. Setting it at two and leaving Liliana or a Knight seems pretty good.

FYI, Deed can't kill Liliana, so nuking the board and leaving your Liliana is a very good situation.

[apple713]

Taking a quick glance, since you are running at least 8 lands that don't provide black mana, you should probably up your Urborg count to 3-4 to get your colorless lands to produce .

Have you thought of Grand Abolisher? It might be a little too cost-restrictive, but you are already in white. It seems pretty useful as a security blanket to make sure Marit Lage strikes for 20 without your opponent interacting with you. What's better is that you can still activate your abilities/spells like MoM to push through blockers. Food for thought.

Grand abilosher doesnt help against anything. I have to make the token on theirvturn so i can attack with it on mine. They can still use karakas, and swords and wasteland which are the biggest problems.

There are 14 lands that could produce black not including 4 deathrite. I agree tho if i could find a land to cut i could add an urborg, but what to cut?

I updated the exact list of lands.

[Kyle]

Ive been working on a list to incorporate dark depths. This is what ive come up with
also protects your important creatures like bob for card advantage and deathrite for mana fixing, thalia for combo.

I played you on the 'trice the other day and was impressed with the build, since it can easily, and without straining, go either the aggro or combo kill route. It's potentially very deceptive and has some good hate elements and card advantage.

Two particular matchups I see being very difficult for you are Miracle Control and RUG, since your only Maindeck disruption is discard. I think you may want to consider two MD Pithing Needles similar to 12-Post lists for Top, Karakas, and Wasteland. Unanswered, Pithing Needle gives you a lot of breathing room. I'd like to test again on Cockatrice if you'll be on in the next few days and I'll bring both decks

[apple713]

I played you on the 'trice the other day and was impressed with the build, since it can easily, and without straining, go either the aggro or combo kill route. It's potentially very deceptive and has some good hate elements and card advantage.

Two particular matchups I see being very difficult for you are Miracle Control and RUG, since your only Maindeck disruption is discard. I think you may want to consider two MD Pithing Needles similar to 12-Post lists for Top, Karakas, and Wasteland. Unanswered, Pithing Needle gives you a lot of breathing room. I'd like to test again on Cockatrice if you'll be on in the next few days and I'll bring both decks

yeah miracles isnt great since they can terminus off the top. Karakas isnt as much a problem there just cause they cant search it, but it is vs maverick / DNT. I did have a very different list that ran 4 pithing needles main but it was hard to gauge if they ever helped. I'd like to test it, just pm me you SN so I can look for you when I get on.

Sideboard is really completly open to suggestions too. Im open to the idea that if the deck needs to side board into an aggro deck or something it can abandon the depths combo to do so in games 2/3.

[.Ix]

Good idea. I will try it the other way, however. I will keep 1 Rotation 1 Stage 1 Depths in the main, and when I need to, I will add 2 Rotation 1 Stage and 1 Depths from the SB, since Marit Lage is never my main plan unless I'm racing Burn or something.

[ZeinVoncy]

Sylvan Scrying may deserve some attention with Dark Depths combo based decks. At that point, running bullet lands like Gaea's Cradle or that single Cabal Pit, would make it a good tutor.

[AggroSteve]

@apple713:

I was wondering about 2 things in your list
first thing was patj to exile over swords to plowshares, but you allready mentioned why u would use path over swords, but i cannot immagine the lifegain from swords to matter all that often... I do not know by what turn u are able to get the combo working but with all the fetches and mayve even thoughseize a lot of decks are running tha the lifegain from swords should not really matter, because you coukd still get the rest of the damage through with any crature protected by MoM or with DRS

second thing i was wondering is why thalia over something like goyf or maybr even a stoneforge package for a faster clock even without marit lage token
if thalia was to help the deapths plan i think all the discard and mother of runes should be enough
without goyf all your creatuer are quite tiney

[Claymore]

Went to a small Legacy event yesterday and did alright. I heard the meta was aggro so I didn't want to put in Thespian Depths and kept with my generic Goyf/Knight/no SFM Rock, with mainboard 3x Liliana, 3x Lingering souls, 1x Cabal Pit (instead of Bojuka Bog) and sideboard Tower of the Magistrate.

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sorin, LOI
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Round 1 vs affinity, mull to 5 and I run out of gas vs his onslaught. Game 2 my natural draw Tower does work against his Cranial Plating until I can stabilize. Tezzeret threatens to kill me straight up but Tower lets my Goyf get through freely to kill him and I finish the game off with overwhelming removal and fatties. Game 3 he mulls to 5 and I punish his one-lander with a Wasteland and a fetched Dryad Arbor (off of Windswept!) to kill his turn 1 Ravager. 2-1

Round 2 vs a new kid and his vampires deck. 2-0

Round 3 vs my friend with Death and Taxes. I believe he beats me game 1, I win game 2 off of the back of a timely 3 for 1 Golgari Charm. I might have Cabal Pit something. Game 3 I almost die (go to 1) but thanks to a few misplays he later acknowledges (he wasted Tower instead of Maze or a colored land, other stuff), I go down to 1 life in order to double Golgari Charm to wipe the field of 2x Mirran Crusader, 1x Mom, 1x SFM. Abrupt Decay the Batterskull token, stabilize the board, and win out from there.

ID against Shardless BUG round 4 to get into the top 4, but we play a game for fun. We both keep one landers. On the draw(?) I Thoughtseize, he brainstorms, I see Ponder, 2x DRS, 3x Goyf, take the Ponder. I lay down Sylvan. A turn or two later I Therapy but he Misdirects it back. Fetch Dryad Arbor and I nab the 2 Goyfs on the flashback. I lay down another Sylvan and use a fetchland in between triggers to see more cards on my drawstep. Eventually my board state is double Sylvan, KotR, Bob, facing a Goyf and 2 DRS. On my upkeep one turn, I resolve Sylvan 1, float B from Bayou, sac it fetch Cabal Pit, AD one DRS, Plow the Goyf, and (with threshold from those spells), Cabal Pit the remaining DRS. I lay down another Knight or Goyf and win from there.

Top 4 I face Burn. Die quickly game 1. Side in some stuff, and although I anticipate Sulfuric Vortex I don't bring in the Golgari Charms. He casts it turn 3 to counter my Ooze (although I did gain 1 life) and I go down in a blaze of shame when, knowing his hand of Volcanic Fallout, Guerrilla Tactics (which made my Liliana dead), and "X", I Thoughtseize anyway. He casts Fallout, reveals his hand to be Tactics and Mountain, and I'm forced to pick Tactics. He is facing lethal but top decks burn to kill me. I think I would have lost anyway if Tactics was any other burn spell.

The other two decks in top 4 were both Shardless BUG.

---

What are good Board options against Shardless? I'm looking to replace the 2x Sorin since that drawn out midrange matchup seems to have dropped from the general meta.

[crow_mw]

Sylvan Scrying may deserve some attention with Dark Depths combo based decks. At that point, running bullet lands like Gaea's Cradle or that single Cabal Pit, would make it a good tutor.

I don't like either idea, but if anything Living Wish should be superior to Sylvan Scrying, as on top of combo pieces you can grab your hatebears With this I think you also move utility lands, like Karakas and Maze to the side and don't play Knights.

[apple713]

Congrats on the finishes!

If you're looking for stuff to beat the Deathrite mirrors, Scavenging Ooze is still hot tech. Eats Punishing Fires, Loams, and totally knocks out opposing Deathrite Shamans.




Which fair decks? I mean, bringing in Ooze is a beating against most other fair decks, but so is running Thrun, or, Lingering Souls. Lingering Souls just out-attritions the fair decks. Deed is also fucking snazzy. Deed on 2, leave your Knights in play, win.



Burn's an awful matchup. Them's the breaks. If you run Batterskull you might get something, or Jitte, otherwise, you're mucho boned.

Loam is another card that's more powerful in the Tempo matches or the midrange mirror to bring back Maze and such that died to Wastelands.

Grip is only good if you plan on facing OmniTell/Counterbalance all day, every day.

Deed is good against Deathrites. Cabal Pit only mucks stuff once, unless you're running and manage to hit your 1-of Loam. I will agree Crusader sucks, as does Mom.



KotR is excellent, but not essential, and entirely metagame dependent. I like Knight since it's a threat on its own, and I feel in this deck, protecting your SFM is hard.

Lingering Souls is really bad in the unfair matchups, but that's the way it is. It can be an attrition card easily slipped into the board as a 2-of, though.


-Matt

For decks running lingering souls why not play recurring nightmare? This interaction seems to capitalize on value. recurring nightmare as a 2-3 of. Anyone have an opinion on this?