[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[benthetenor]

The way it actually works is you Ad Nauseam with nothing floating from 14+ life and win most of the time. Because you don't need anything floating, Ad Nauseam is actually a 5 mana spell, unlike ANT, so Rite of Flame not adding as much mana isn't a big deal (and helps with Wishing for red things). A pretty common line is Infernal Tutoring for another Rite of Flame, so it gets up to Cabal Ritual levels more than you might think.

About Ad Nauseam specifically, look in my sig for an excel worksheet with some analysis on the different storm variants. The conclusion I came to was that while the average CMC is "only" 0.10 different between ANT and TES, the consistency is way higher. There's fewer big swings so you on average can go deeper.

That's interesting. I'm not really disputing that TES is a better Ad Nauseum deck, just that the reason for it being so is that the average CMC is lower. It is, clearly, that just doesn't seem to be the main reason why it's a better Ad Nauseum deck. I guess the counter-argument to that is that it's pretty irrelevant since ANT is probably a better Past in Flames deck, so in that sense it's just a question of flavor.

[Lemnear]

That's interesting. I'm not really disputing that TES is a better Ad Nauseum deck, just that the reason for it being so is that the average CMC is lower. It is, clearly, that just doesn't seem to be the main reason why it's a better Ad Nauseum deck. I guess the counter-argument to that is that it's pretty irrelevant since ANT is probably a better Past in Flames deck, so in that sense it's just a question of flavor.

-TES runs 8 Tutors to finish off it's opponents while ANT has only 4 so you need to flip less cards off AN
-TES has more initial and faster manasources than ANT so you can cast AN earlier and without mana Floating
-TES doesn't care for graveyard-hate (ergo it's NOT a question of flavor)
-TES has a lower CMC (mostly due to Chrome Mox)

...just or the topic of Ad Nauseam alone, not to talk about the ability to sidestep hate

[benthetenor]

-TES runs 8 Tutors to finish off it's opponents while ANT has only 4 so you need to flip less cards off AN
-TES has more initial and faster manasources than ANT so you can cast AN earlier and without mana Floating
-TES doesn't care for graveyard-hate (ergo it's NOT a question of flavor)
-TES has a lower CMC (mostly due to Chrome Mox)

...just or the topic of Ad Nauseam alone, not to talk about the ability to sidestep hate

...and Past in Flames can't be affected by attacking creatures or by Lightning Bolts. Hence, it IS a question of flavor. Both have positives and negatives. ANT is just as capable of casting Ad Nauseam as TES is, so to suggest that one deck is more susceptible to graveyard hate than the other is kind of a lie.

The only differences in the mana sources are Rite of Flame vs. Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox vs. basic lands. Literally all of the rest of the mana sources are comparable. I'm not sure what you're trying to say by saying that TES has more "initial and faster manasources", given that the only difference is really the Chrome Moxes, and that's not a huge difference. The lower CMC is not due to Chrome Mox as the cards that they're replacing are just lands anyway which also have a CMC of 0.

[Lemnear]

...and Past in Flames can't be affected by attacking creatures or by Lightning Bolts. Hence, it IS a question of flavor. Both have positives and negatives. ANT is just as capable of casting Ad Nauseam as TES is, so to suggest that one deck is more susceptible to graveyard hate than the other is kind of a lie.

The only differences in the mana sources are Rite of Flame vs. Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox vs. basic lands. Literally all of the rest of the mana sources are comparable. I'm not sure what you're trying to say by saying that TES has more "initial and faster manasources", given that the only difference is really the Chrome Moxes, and that's not a huge difference. The lower CMC is not due to Chrome Mox as the cards that they're replacing are just lands anyway which also have a CMC of 0.

It's new to me that Ad Nauseam, Diminishing Return or Empty the Warrens are working with the graveyard. Enlight me?!

I already outlined why TES casts better AN's, so no, ANT is not AS CAPABLE to cast AN as TES is.

TES has access to D.Returns, EtW, PIF and Tutor-chains with Infernal + Wish in case life goes low (if you want to ignore it being faster than ANT and thus getting dealt less damage by creatures). ANT has only Infernal and PIF in that case.

More initial mana means Chrome Mox and with faster mana I obviously mean RoF which a) doesn't require T.hold, b) Deals less damage off AN, c) produces multiple red for Wish->EtW/Grapeshot/PIF, d) is insane in multiples (especially for PIF)

[benthetenor]

And each of those cards has to be gotten with a Burning Wish. Past in Flames is way worse in this deck than in ANT because you can't chain everything together with a Burning Wish, as opposed to ANT where you only require an Infernal Tutor and a couple of rituals to win the game. With TES, it seems you HAVE to cast Ad Nauseum to generate enough storm to beat the opponent, or else you settle (in many cases) for a smaller Empty the Warrens which is not a very good win condition for a combo deck. What I see happening a lot more is that ANT takes an extra half-turn to win, but when it wins, it wins, whereas TES will try to go off earlier and will either win or cast a large Empty the Warrens, giving the opponent as many as three turns to draw out of it. It seems like Burning Wish will often just get you a Draw 7 which is strong but in and of itself doesn't guarantee a win. I'm just trying to find the "best" deck in the format, and it seems to me that if there's a deck that's better at using Yawgmoth's Will, that's the deck you want to be playing because there's zero variance in that line of play, whereas you can always lose to your deck with Ad Nauseam.

[Vandalize]

Also, don't forget T.E.S has better protection with Silence.

This TES x ANT war is really outdated bro, they're really different in many ways. ANT is a full turn slower due to the need of cantriping and reaching threshold, while TES is faster and less resilient (which leads to more mulligans).

Empty the Warrens IS a legitimate win condition, and if it doesn't work 2% of the times you combo off, that's not really a reason not to run the card.
ANT is a better Past in Flames deck, due to Cabal Ritual, and TES is a better Ad Nauseam deck because of fast artifact mana.

ANT is better if the games drags out late, as you can have your hand Hymn over and over, and still find a Past in Flames to victory, but ANT has a harder time dealing with Hatebears (Thalia, Canonist and Teeg) because it lacks Silence-walks and goldfishes at turn 3. TES has serious problems with discard, as it has less cantrips, and can pull some low storm Empty the Warrens for a free win.

After all this comparison, it really comes to metagame and player style/skill. One deck isn't better than the other, ANT is just a Deck to Beat because it's played more than TES, and is easier to pilot (as a whole).

[Lemnear]

And each of those cards has to be gotten with a Burning Wish. Past in Flames is way worse in this deck than in ANT because you can't chain everything together with a Burning Wish, as opposed to ANT where you only require an Infernal Tutor and a couple of rituals to win the game. With TES, it seems you HAVE to cast Ad Nauseum to generate enough storm to beat the opponent, or else you settle (in many cases) for a smaller Empty the Warrens which is not a very good win condition for a combo deck. What I see happening a lot more is that ANT takes an extra half-turn to win, but when it wins, it wins, whereas TES will try to go off earlier and will either win or cast a large Empty the Warrens, giving the opponent as many as three turns to draw out of it. It seems like Burning Wish will often just get you a Draw 7 which is strong but in and of itself doesn't guarantee a win. I'm just trying to find the "best" deck in the format, and it seems to me that if there's a deck that's better at using Yawgmoth's Will, that's the deck you want to be playing because there's zero variance in that line of play, whereas you can always lose to your deck with Ad Nauseam.

You can Infernal->Wish->X and often postboard Wish->Infernal->X so either Tutor will do the trick. TES is not required to cast AN to win as the many reports in my sig show. There are plenty of natural spellchains to victory covered. I guess you give too much credit to rumors about the deck, cause the Wish->DR isn't a desired play and AN into EtW just don't happen (did this 2 times in my entire TES time; once to battle Leyline of the Void with Upkeep-Silences to protect the Goblins)

You can decide if you want a deck with a Yawgmoths Will which can't return LED as centerpiece or one with a 5cc Yawgmoths Bargain which often does less than 1 damage per card (coverted cards-damage-Ratio at the end of the Flip)

[davelin]

And each of those cards has to be gotten with a Burning Wish. Past in Flames is way worse in this deck than in ANT because you can't chain everything together with a Burning Wish, as opposed to ANT where you only require an Infernal Tutor and a couple of rituals to win the game. With TES, it seems you HAVE to cast Ad Nauseum to generate enough storm to beat the opponent, or else you settle (in many cases) for a smaller Empty the Warrens which is not a very good win condition for a combo deck. What I see happening a lot more is that ANT takes an extra half-turn to win, but when it wins, it wins, whereas TES will try to go off earlier and will either win or cast a large Empty the Warrens, giving the opponent as many as three turns to draw out of it. It seems like Burning Wish will often just get you a Draw 7 which is strong but in and of itself doesn't guarantee a win. I'm just trying to find the "best" deck in the format, and it seems to me that if there's a deck that's better at using Yawgmoth's Will, that's the deck you want to be playing because there's zero variance in that line of play, whereas you can always lose to your deck with Ad Nauseam.

They are both very good decks with multiple major top 8's to their respective names. Each has their relative strengths and weaknesses, but if you're a very competent player with either one, you'll very likely to be met with success.

Yes TES is a better AN deck and ANT is a better PiF deck but each one can use both in the right circumstances.

[Royce Walter]

And each of those cards has to be gotten with a Burning Wish. Past in Flames is way worse in this deck than in ANT because you can't chain everything together with a Burning Wish, as opposed to ANT where you only require an Infernal Tutor and a couple of rituals to win the game. With TES, it seems you HAVE to cast Ad Nauseum to generate enough storm to beat the opponent, or else you settle (in many cases) for a smaller Empty the Warrens which is not a very good win condition for a combo deck. What I see happening a lot more is that ANT takes an extra half-turn to win, but when it wins, it wins, whereas TES will try to go off earlier and will either win or cast a large Empty the Warrens, giving the opponent as many as three turns to draw out of it. It seems like Burning Wish will often just get you a Draw 7 which is strong but in and of itself doesn't guarantee a win. I'm just trying to find the "best" deck in the format, and it seems to me that if there's a deck that's better at using Yawgmoth's Will, that's the deck you want to be playing because there's zero variance in that line of play, whereas you can always lose to your deck with Ad Nauseam.

Over 10 rounds at Somerset I cast AN 7 times, Returns 4 times, PiF 6 times, and Empty the Warrens once. The only matchups where my game plan revolves around resolving AN from the time I start shuffling are decks that don't pressure your life total (Counterbalance, Show and Tell), and I only feel that Empty is the primary win condition vs RUG. You don't need to resolve Ad Nauseam to get enough storm to Tendrils people, it's just the easiest thing to do when you have 13+ life.

[benthetenor]

Ok, so now that we've discussed Ad Nauseam, well, ad-nauseam, what about the mana? Again, I'm not really interested in debating the relative merits of 5 color vs. duals and fetches and basics, but is it not really an issue for you guys that you often need to get at least three and sometimes four different colors of mana on the turn you go off? It seems to me that that would be stickier, particularly if you're going of earlier than ANT, than just relying primarily on black mana.

[phazonmutant]

Ok, so now that we've discussed Ad Nauseam, well, ad-nauseam, what about the mana? Again, I'm not really interested in debating the relative merits of 5 color vs. duals and fetches and basics, but is it not really an issue for you guys that you often need to get at least three and sometimes four different colors of mana on the turn you go off? It seems to me that that would be stickier, particularly if you're going of earlier than ANT, than just relying primarily on black mana.

It's uncommon to go off with protection with fewer than 3 IMSs, at least one of which is a 5-color source. ANT doesn't really like Lotus Petal, TES loves them. However, in matchups where speed is its own form of protection, it's not uncommon to only need one or 2 IMSs. Colors aren't a big issue usually - once you've learned how to manage your manabase. That's the crucial skill difference in TES vs. ANT.

[davelin]

Over 10 rounds at Somerset I cast AN 7 times, Returns 4 times, PiF 6 times, and Empty the Warrens once. The only matchups where my game plan revolves around resolving AN from the time I start shuffling are decks that don't pressure your life total (Counterbalance, Show and Tell), and I only feel that Empty is the primary win condition vs RUG. You don't need to resolve Ad Nauseam to get enough storm to Tendrils people, it's just the easiest thing to do when you have 13+ life.

First, again congrats Royce on your recent success. Second, you've brought up something I've somewhat discovered myself recently is that EtW seems to be less and less like a good wincon. Between Deed/Explosives/Batterskull/Devastating Dreams/Tabernacle/etc it seems like most decks have a way to deal with even 10-12 goblins dropped on the first couple of turns. Given that, should EtW still be in the maindeck or replaced by something like PiF? Given the 4 mana floating and a 5 storm-count after a resolved Wish, should one be thinking more and more about DimRets to finish off the job or dropping the goblin army and crossing fingers for 2 more turns? Or perhaps crafting our hand for another turn or two for something more certain? Hope to hear folks' thoughts, thanks!

[Lemnear]

As long as peeps think that keeping Thoughtseize, Hymn, Spell Pierce and other hands loaded with disruption on the draw is enough, EtW for 8+ Goblins is still golden

[Royce Walter]

Yeah naturally drawing empty is so much better than just about any other card. You get so many game wins by making goblins in the first 3 turns.

[davelin]

Yeah naturally drawing empty is so much better than just about any other card. You get so many game wins by making goblins in the first 3 turns.

What do you think contributed to you only needing to cast empty once during the whole tournament? Matchups weren't favorable for EtW or you always had a better option out there?

[Zombie]

Empty the Warrens which is not a very good win condition for a combo deck.

ETW is insane. Dunno what format you play if you think it's bad.

[Royce Walter]

What do you think contributed to you only needing to cast empty once during the whole tournament? Matchups weren't favorable for EtW or you always had a better option out there?

Actually I forgot, I cast it twice. Once it got stifled and I lost. Either way, most of the decks I played against it wasn't that great against (goblins, elves, show and tell, affinity, TES, ANT). The other times I could afford to tendrils.

[Lemnear]

Must be trolling or why do we keep discussing obvious choices?

[Basaka]

Well, I cast Dim. Ret three times today against dredge in 2 games, all 3 times with at least 2 mana floating (UR, UB), and never got there. Although shuffling their deck so they can't keep dredging is a plus.

Also, silence is golden. Manage to cast it against a S&T deck who intuition'd for S&T, then untapped and hardcast Ad Nauseum with 5 lands (yeah, that was a weird game). Then lost game 3 by wasting a turn BW -> CT naming Emrakul which I knew he has as he topdeck'd a sneak attack only to have him topdeck intuition, herp.

Seems like variance just hasn't been too kind to me lately... I keep beating the FoW decks and lose to favourable MUs. Perhaps I should practise topdecking more.

[Asthereal]

Ok, so now that we've discussed Ad Nauseam, well, ad-nauseam, what about the mana? Again, I'm not really interested in debating the relative merits of 5 color vs. duals and fetches and basics, but is it not really an issue for you guys that you often need to get at least three and sometimes four different colors of mana on the turn you go off? It seems to me that that would be stickier, particularly if you're going of earlier than ANT, than just relying primarily on black mana.

If you have issues with initial mana sources, there's the option of adding lands.
A guy from Team Nijmegen (team full of Dutch Storm players, most of them very strong players too) played the TES list:
+2 fetch, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Burning Wish
So his list has 14 lands and 2 Chrome Mox, and 9 business spells instead of 10.
This makes the deck better for casting cantrips and more flexible, but slightly less explosive.

(He also played 4 Duress and 3 Silence as protection package, but I feel that is incorrect in most metas.)